Help me define a reloading

[ctay]

Had a disagreement on what constitutes a reload for the purposes of a mandatory reload in a classifier.

The situation:

Competitor has a magazine malfunction before the mandatory reload on a classifier. He reloads from his belt a new magazine. When it comes time for the mandatory reload he has no magazines left on his belt. In order to comply with the mandatory reload he drops the mag from his gun into his hand, then re-seats the same magazine into the gun.

Question - does this count as a reload?

One person says no - per 5.2.4. The magazine didn't come from the belt or pocket.

Another says yes this meets the definition of reload in the rule book:

Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

I've searched every instance of the word Reload and didn't find anything that clearly disallows or allows this.

Any thoughts?

[jstoos]

The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm means different ammo. Same magazine wouldn't count. Shooter failed to do mandatory reload. Procedural per shot fired.

[gng4life]

This was discussed in Front Sight one time...removing the current mag and re-inserting it does not constitute a reload. It must be another ammunition source.

Edited July 28, 2014 by gng4life

[Vlad]

1) magazine did come from the belt, just a while ago. Its not as if it was not originally on the belt, so I wouldn't worry about that one. Other wise clearing a jam by first removing the mag and retaining it and then re-inserting it would also be against the rules.

2) So .. if I drop the mag all the way to the ground, find I have no more then pick it up again, then it is ok? How is that different then looking at my belt first, removing the mag and putting it back in, instead of first dropping it?

Of course, I don't think the rules really make sense, and I've quite trying to make them make sense.

Also, what if I took it out of the gun, put it in my pouch and then took it back out and and put in the gun?

Of course all of this is somewhat silly, because we point of mandatory reloads (which aren't defined as far as I know) is to keep the classifiers "fair" while testing a skill set. Some one who had a jam and to clear it and reload ahead of time has already flunked the classifier for his skill level so you can punish them some more but it seems pointless.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Vlad

[Steve RA]

I would think that if you remove it from the gun and then reintroduce it to the gun it would be new ammo ??? If you reload a partially empty magazine between stages it would seem to be the same thing.

[racerba]

1) magazine did come from the belt, just a while ago. Its not as if it was not originally on the belt, so I wouldn't worry about that one. Other wise clearing a jam by first removing the mag and retaining it and then re-inserting it would also be against the rules.

The magazine came from the belt when the shooter did a "non-mandatory" reload. Clearing a jam and reinserting the same magazine does not constitute a reload. What rule would you be breaking?

2) So .. if I drop the mag all the way to the ground, find I have no more then pick it up again, then it is ok? How is that different then looking at my belt first, removing the mag and putting it back in, instead of first dropping it?

Who said it was OK?

If reinserting the same magazine constitute a reload, then everybody would be doing it and the time to reload will now be sub .5 seconds. As it is, replenishing does not mean using the same magazine with the same amount and definitely does not mean adding additional ammunition. I will however allow you to drop the magazine, top it off with a round and reinserting the same magazine - because you are replenishing the magazine and adding additional ammunition.

Edited July 28, 2014 by racerba

[Sarge]

I agree, Same ammo, no matter what you do with it in between, is not reloading in regards to how we define it.

I think I brought this up once as well on here.

[ctay]

Can anyone point to a rule that supports this? This seems to be a hole in the rules from what I can see.

[Vlad]

Ok, lets use some logic, not made up USPSA logic.

1) Who says it has to be different ammo? Seeing how in a non-mandatory reload condition I'm allowed to use "old" ammo I picked up of the ground, where in the definition of mandatory reload does is say I can't use old ammo. Actually, please point me to the definition of "mandatory reload"

2) "Everyone would be doing this" .. well maybe they should. Allow me to point out an absurd example. Lets say you are one of those ultra skilled people who can shoot El Pres in 3.5 second with all A's. 60 points in 3.5sec is 17.14HF. Lets say you reload if 0.8 seconds and you skip it, 60-10 is 50pt in 2.7sec is now 18.51HF

BTW, I'm only discussing this point out the rules a broken. There is no definition of reload, mandatory reload, etc that clearly define this. There needs to be one. Better yet I think most classifiers would benefit from being re-written to require a reload between first and last shot instead of specific when it needs to be done, but thats me.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Vlad

[jester121]

How about a dose of common sense... the intent of the rule is quite clear on its face.

[Vlad]

Bah .. common sense would make a lot of rule lawyering and internet arguments go away, what's the fun in that?

[ctay]

Common sense - I understand what you are trying to say but common sense is different by person. That is why we write clearly defined rules that are not open to interpretation.

[Sarge]

From your first post Ctay,

Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

When I asked about this it was made very clear to me that additional means other than the original ammo removed from the gun

[bikerburgess]

From the classifier course book

Every possible effort has been made to ensure that

all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses

have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with

hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and

course design experience. These include Range Officers,

Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master

Instructors, and the Director of the National Range

Officers Institute. The nature of the project is such that

there are probably undetected errors in spite of all that

effort. In most cases the intent of the course will be

obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

Practical shooting is distinct from other shooting

disciplines in that the responsibility for determining the

best, safe solution to the problem presented by a course

of fire is the competitor’s. In other words, practical

shooting intends to test the ability to think in addition to

testing the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately. That

intent is formalized in the Practical Shooting Handbook,

in which IPSC 1.1.5 says, “IPSC matches are freestyle.”

It is, however, necessary to establish an exception in the

case of the classification system. The classification

system is able to determine a competitor’s accuracy and

speed as those abilities are quantifiable. The system is

not able to measure the ability to “game” a stage as those

intangible skills are not quantifiable. If competitors are

allowed to outsmart the classification course designer

the results are meaningless.

The primary responsibility for honoring this concept

of fairness as it applies to the classification system lies

with the competitor. The secondary responsibility is that

of the match directors and range officers to ensure that

the stages are run properly. If the stage description leaves

any doubt as to the proper procedure, please call the

office for clarification before the match.

[motosapiens]

2) "Everyone would be doing this" .. well maybe they should. Allow me to point out an absurd example. Lets say you are one of those ultra skilled people who can shoot El Pres in 3.5 second with all A's. 60 points in 3.5sec is 17.14HF. Lets say you reload if 0.8 seconds and you skip it, 60-10 is 50pt in 2.7sec is now 18.51HF

wouldn't it be 60 - 60 = 0.00 hf? Procedural per shot fired. I'm guessing that's why people don't skip it.

In an attempt to keep murphy at bay, I always take at least 1 more magazine than I need to the start line of any stage.

Edited July 28, 2014 by motosapiens

[ctay]

From your first post Ctay,

Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

When I asked about this it was made very clear to me that additional means other than the original ammo removed from the gun

Sarge - that is the part I was thinking about as well but it does seem rather strained when you start continuing the train of thought. For example - Can I reuse a magazine that I dropped in a previous string? IE that ammunition has already been in that gun therefore it is not additional. When does the "history" of the ammunition and magazine end so that it can become additional again? "Additional" isn't defined.

I'm thinking that we are missing a definition here. Mandatory Reload probably needs to be defined.

@bikerburgess - no one was trying to game the stage in this example - just no alternative to finish the stage when only one mag was available.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ctay

[CB45]

Good Lord, don't over complicate the easy stuff. Reload off the belt.

Pick mags up between strings if needed. Rules don't need to be crystal clear for the intention of the rule to be clear.

[ctay]

Are you saying if you have only one mag left you should drop it, place it in your belt, remove it from your belt and insert it in the gun to have performed a mandatory reload? Or are you saying that if you only have one mag left you cannot legally perform a mandatory reload?

[Vlad]

2) "Everyone would be doing this" .. well maybe they should. Allow me to point out an absurd example. Lets say you are one of those ultra skilled people who can shoot El Pres in 3.5 second with all A's. 60 points in 3.5sec is 17.14HF. Lets say you reload if 0.8 seconds and you skip it, 60-10 is 50pt in 2.7sec is now 18.51HF

wouldn't it be 60 - 60 = 0.00 hf? Procedural per shot fired. I'm guessing that's why people don't skip it.

Sorry I missed that part of El Pres. I withdraw my absurd case.

I would like to know if everyone is ok with placing the mag in the mag pouch and taking out again. If not, why not, what possible adventage could be gained?

[Jakobi]

Reloading: the replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

Additional: added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available.

5.2.4 defines where additional magazines/ammunition can be kept.

If it's been in the gun it is not added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available until that string or COF is completed.

Which classifier are we talking about anyway?

[Steve RA]

The "common sense" answer would be to carry enough magazines for any eventuality !!

Maybe you could forget about the imminent Zombie attack forecast for 2:30 PM.

[Vlad]

Reloading: the replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

Additional: added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available.

5.2.4 defines where additional magazines/ammunition can be kept.

If it's been in the gun it is not added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available until that string or COF is completed.

Which classifier are we talking about anyway?

Sorry that is stretching logic for me. The momement I removed the mag from the gun, there is at best one round in the gun and the mag in my hand is additional to that. Reloading with a dropped mag is allowed. If I take a mag out of my gun and put it in a pouch to clear a jam and then I use it a again according to the rules that is also reloading even if it is the "old" ammo?

I think people get bent out of shape about that definition of reloading when it is probably there to mostly define thing like when to keep your finger off the trigger and all the other anciliary things.

Simple question, classifier aside, if I take a mag out the gun, put it on my belt and then use it again, is it reloading? If not, what is it? Because if it isn't reloading, can I keep my finger on the trigger when I do it?

[MarkCO]

As an RM, I would assess the penalties for failing to reload as required and the score would stand for match placement. I would also waive the 2nd classifier fee and allow the shooter to reshoot the classifier to be submitted, if he wanted.

I won't argue the reload or not, it is clear what the answer is and several have made the argument well already. However, the classifier book also allows scores that do not accurately reflect the shooters ability do not have to be submitted. In this case, he had an issue so the RM can not submit that once he had the malfunction...for classification, but it must be scored as shot for the match placement.

[Vlad]

I like that.

[ctay]

I'm not saying I necessary disagree but I can't support that with the written rules. The word additional is not defined in the rule book.

What would you call ammo that isn't in the gun? I would call it additional ammo.

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't think this is well defined in the rule book.