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Grip and forearm training by Tony Horton


NicVerAZ

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  • 3 months later...
  • 3 months later...

This guy:

Is he really 56?

Anyway, great practice tips. I need those ropes.

Campus board is a bad way to train for a crushing grip like we use for handguns. It can also be dangerous because muscle develops faster than tendons can keep up. Stick to general weightlifting with a focus on forearms and use CoC or heavy grippers

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ben stoeger tells students to just work with the grip strength you have - it will be enough. its too easy to do damage with most trainersand its not really necessary ....

Usually I hold Stoeger's opinion above all others, and I'm no GM but I disagree with this. Obviously the stronger grip you have, the harder you can comfortably grip the pistol. This will lead to better recoil management without fail. If I were to guess he'd probably agree that to be a competitor for the National title, you'd probably need an above average grip strength. I'd imagine he is talking about it being negligible for the purpose of making A class and below.

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Obviously the stronger grip you have, the harder you can comfortably grip the pistol. This will lead to better recoil management without fail. If I were to guess he'd probably agree that to be a competitor for the National title, you'd probably need an above average grip strength. I'd imagine he is talking about it being negligible for the purpose of making A class and below.

If that were true, then the best shooters would all be musclebound goons, yet many of them are stringy little pansies like me (max, manny, nils, sevigny, vogel, for example). ;)

I think many athletic people who already participate in activities that require some grip probably already have well above average grip strength, and may not need to do anything more than dryfire regularly. Frankly that's plenty of grip workout for me, but I also ride/race dirtbikes and mtn bikes and play hockey, and lift free weights twice a week, and do physical work in the garden that uses those same muscles. I used to think most anyone already had the strength to control a gun (really doesn't take much strength imho), but watching how much some people's guns move around in their hands makes it seem like they are doing something different. Not sure if it's lack of strength or just lack of the timing of when to apply that strength. Might just be lack of good dryfire practice.

OTOH, more sedentary types may have trouble simply hanging from a pullup bar, and may benefit from some training beyond their dryfire. I would start slow and work opposing sets of muscles to help avoid injury.

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ben stoeger tells students to just work with the grip strength you have - it will be enough. its too easy to do damage with most trainersand its not really necessary ....

Usually I hold Stoeger's opinion above all others, and I'm no GM but I disagree with this. Obviously the stronger grip you have, the harder you can comfortably grip the pistol. This will lead to better recoil management without fail. If I were to guess he'd probably agree that to be a competitor for the National title, you'd probably need an above average grip strength. I'd imagine he is talking about it being negligible for the purpose of making A class and below.

I can also tell you that it doesn't take much to overtrain your forearms and give yourself tendinitis. Especially if you already left weights and dry fire....

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I can also tell you that it doesn't take much to overtrain your forearms and give yourself tendinitis. Especially if you already left weights and dry fire....

Good point. I suspect there are different kinds of tendon soreness, but I was prone to elbow soreness from gripping the gun hard in dryfire. It hurt sometimes to squeeze a sponge, so I don't think doing even MORE grip training would have been a good idea. OTOH, physical therapy exercises to use the opposing and supporting muscles has been pretty effective at making my elbow happy.

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no. Ben has told me he does not do any grip strength training and does not consider himself to have some kind of gorilla grip .... the only difference is for women who may have below avergae grip strength then a little bit would help but not the kind most talk about ...

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"If that were true, then the best shooters would all be musclebound goons, yet many of them are stringy little pansies like me (max, manny, nils, sevigny, vogel, for example). ;)"

Sorry Motosapien but that logic doesn't fly. Since grip strength is determined distal to the elbow being a muscle bound "goon" would have little to do with grip strength. Baseball players, as a group, are widely thought of as having superior grip strength but very few would be considered meat heads. In fact the majority of people I have met with a crushing grip were 50 year old farmers with a very unassuming body type. So I guess there in lies the solution to superior grip strength. Quit your office job and bust your ass for 50 years.

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You guys are over thinking this.

The human body is highly adaptable at least in its prime. There is no exercise that can prepare for the real thing like the real thing but a wide array of exercises with no excess does help no matter what.

Besides, I have seen Motosapiens wrestle dirt bikes like nobody. I guess he has enough grip for this sport.

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Bob Vogel trained up to #3 CoC. That takes some serious grip strength. If it didn't help, why would he do it? You can look at how disproportionate Miculek's forearms are to the rest of his muscle mass and tell he's got some serious grip strength too. I don't think this is just by chance. Another thought is that Ben uses a much heavier gun than Vogel. That could be a big difference in their felt need for grip strength. At the end of the day, the physics are plain that grip strength will reduce muzzle flip. I think everyone would agree this is a good thing. Why would you not want to improve this? Even if your sights track perfectly back after every shot, less flip will track them faster.

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My forearms are full of scar tissue, my tendons in my hands have lumps on them and I also have chronic tennis elbow for over 15 years. I went to the gym, rode horses and used a grinder all day at work, among other things. I learned the hard way about over-training and over-use. I'm not really supposed to shoot :( I try not to shoot two days in a row, if I don't have to.

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Bob Vogel trained up to #3 CoC. That takes some serious grip strength. If it didn't help, why would he do it? You can look at how disproportionate Miculek's forearms are to the rest of his muscle mass and tell he's got some serious grip strength too. I don't think this is just by chance. Another thought is that Ben uses a much heavier gun than Vogel. That could be a big difference in their felt need for grip strength. At the end of the day, the physics are plain that grip strength will reduce muzzle flip. I think everyone would agree this is a good thing. Why would you not want to improve this? Even if your sights track perfectly back after every shot, less flip will track them faster.

I'm certainly not saying that grip strength isn't a good thing and doesn't help control the gun. I definitely believe it does. What I am saying is that if you lift weights daily, dry fire several times a week and do extra grip work, you can over train those muscles. I know this because I've done it.......and I won't ever make that mistake again.

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Baseball players, as a group, are widely thought of as having superior grip strength but very few would be considered meat heads.

Maybe in your world. Here on earth, baseball players are the kings of meatheadedness. ;)

Good point about farmers tho. Thanks for supporting my point, which is that athletic or hard-working people may not need to work on grip strength, whereas sedentary people and couch potatos do.

Edited by motosapiens
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Bob Vogel trained up to #3 CoC. That takes some serious grip strength. If it didn't help, why would he do it?

He wears long pants in the heat too. If bob vogel jumped off a cliff, would you? (as my mom used to say).

If you feel like you don't have enough grip strength, and you're having trouble controlling the gun, then it may make sense to work on it. I'd start by doing regular dry-fire and gripping the gun seriously hard during dryfire.

Edited by motosapiens
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Bob Vogel trained up to #3 CoC. That takes some serious grip strength. If it didn't help, why would he do it?

He wears long pants in the heat too. If bob vogel jumped off a cliff, would you? (as my mom used to say).

If you feel like you don't have enough grip strength, and you're having trouble controlling the gun, then it may make sense to work on it. I'd start by doing regular dry-fire and gripping the gun seriously hard during dryfire.

He didn't do it for shits n giggles. He is arguably the best shooter in the world so it would be foolish not to mirror his training to some extent

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He didn't do it for shits n giggles. He is arguably the best shooter in the world so it would be foolish not to mirror his training to some extent

What? I guess you could argue that, but some guys named nils, eric, ben and max might take exception. Clearly bob and ben have both had success despite their divergent view of this topic. As a mathematician, that tells me that maybe grip strength training isn't that important for everyone, and neither are long pants in hot weather.

However, for anyone that feels like a weak grip is low-hanging fruit for, I urge them to address it.

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He didn't do it for shits n giggles. He is arguably the best shooter in the world so it would be foolish not to mirror his training to some extent

What? I guess you could argue that, but some guys named nils, eric, ben and max might take exception. Clearly bob and ben have both had success despite their divergent view of this topic. As a mathematician, that tells me that maybe grip strength training isn't that important for everyone, and neither are long pants in hot weather.

However, for anyone that feels like a weak grip is low-hanging fruit for, I urge them to address it.

That Nils dude is not too bad, I have to admit.

That said, knowing Nils personally, he is not exactly a muscle head either. He just grew up shooting guns.

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Physics doesn't lie. All else being equal, more grip strength is better. Why not train it?

There's no reason to believe that as you reach the point of diminishing returns, more grip strength *is* actually better. Clearly there is some minimum amount you probably need, but it really doesn't take much strength to control a recoiling gun. It's just not that much force. Also, by training for more than you actually need, you take time away from other aspects of training that may yield greater results, and you *may* increase the chance of an overuse injury (or you may have to reduce the amount you dryfire, which can't be a good thing).

If you feel that you are unable to grip a gun hard enough, then it may make sense to work more on that, but there are certainly some world-class shooters who don't seem to worry about it too much.

I would be curious about whether it's something many other top shooters take time to work on. Right now we have a successful example of each side of the argument. I'm not at home, so I don't have my Enos book handy, but I don't recall him making a big deal out grip strength, or even gripping hard in the first place.

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Physics doesn't lie. All else being equal, more grip strength is better. Why not train it?

There's no reason to believe that as you reach the point of diminishing returns, more grip strength *is* actually better. Clearly there is some minimum amount you probably need, but it really doesn't take much strength to control a recoiling gun. It's just not that much force. Also, by training for more than you actually need, you take time away from other aspects of training that may yield greater results, and you *may* increase the chance of an overuse injury (or you may have to reduce the amount you dryfire, which can't be a good thing).

If you feel that you are unable to grip a gun hard enough, then it may make sense to work more on that, but there are certainly some world-class shooters who don't seem to worry about it too much.

I would be curious about whether it's something many other top shooters take time to work on. Right now we have a successful example of each side of the argument. I'm not at home, so I don't have my Enos book handy, but I don't recall him making a big deal out grip strength, or even gripping hard in the first place.

Good point, I seem to recall him saying he didn't over grip the gun which allowed the front sight to return to the same spot consistently....

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Physics doesn't lie. All else being equal, more grip strength is better. Why not train it?

There's no reason to believe that as you reach the point of diminishing returns, more grip strength *is* actually better. Clearly there is some minimum amount you probably need, but it really doesn't take much strength to control a recoiling gun. It's just not that much force. Also, by training for more than you actually need, you take time away from other aspects of training that may yield greater results, and you *may* increase the chance of an overuse injury (or you may have to reduce the amount you dryfire, which can't be a good thing).

If you feel that you are unable to grip a gun hard enough, then it may make sense to work more on that, but there are certainly some world-class shooters who don't seem to worry about it too much.

I would be curious about whether it's something many other top shooters take time to work on. Right now we have a successful example of each side of the argument. I'm not at home, so I don't have my Enos book handy, but I don't recall him making a big deal out grip strength, or even gripping hard in the first place.

You can train with a hand gripper while at work where other training would not be possible. Not doubt there's diminishing returns, but there's diminishing returns for every aspect of training in this sport. Contenders spend countless hours to get .05 second improvements on their transitions, having the sights track faster due to a stronger grip is not negligible.

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You can train with a hand gripper while at work where other training would not be possible. Not doubt there's diminishing returns, but there's diminishing returns for every aspect of training in this sport. Contenders spend countless hours to get .05 second improvements on their transitions, having the sights track faster due to a stronger grip is not negligible.

Apparently not all national champions and famous pro shooters believe that the sights will track faster to specifically training for a stronger grip. Are they wrong?

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