Question about a shoot through

[Blaise1]

So I was at a match today, 3GN Club Series, and a shooter on my squad shot a paper rifle target at about 10yds and knocked over a Popper with the shoot through, what's the call? Match DQ for engaging steel with rifle too close, stage DQ, just a penalty for FTE on the Popper since it was to be engaged with pistol, or no penalty and tell him he was lucky? I've never seen this kind of shoot through happen before and I'm asking so that when/if it ever happens to me I'll know what to do.

[mike4045]

DQ, caused by bad stage design. It is still the competitors responsibility to know where his rounds are going.

[Flatland Shooter]

Sadly Mike is correct. I've been to some small matches where the RO will point out possible shoot through problems like this one.

[openclassterror]

We had a poorly planned stage at a recent club match that put multiple half-scale rifle paper behind pistol paper if engaged from certain windows in the façade. I warned the shooters in my squad about the danger, as the stage designer's solution was procedurals for "engaging with incorrect firearm" on the pistol pass-throughs. Still had about 1 out of 3 shooters poke holes with their pistols, as that window was the most natural shooting position, and the small rifle targets were COMPLETELY hidden from there. Still the shooters' responsibility, but to me it's like a 180 trap. Don't put people in a position to fail. We now have a member of our safety crew who does NOT assist in stage design walk all courses of fire before the match starts looking for these types of things. In the designer's defense, he has only been competing a little over a year, and got elected to the position without enough help. As a group, we need to assist him more with the stage designs as he is running out of ideas.

Edited July 7, 2014 by openclassterror

[alma]

No way that should be a DQ as long as the shooters were engaging the targets from the appropriate areas and shooting in the appropriate directions.

The way I think of it the shooter wasn't engaging the other targets. He was engaging the correct targets in front and rounds passing through generally will not count for score as the targets in front are deemed impenetrable.

DQ the stage designer. Watch for that stuff during the walk through if possible and move one sent of targets or the employee other or perhaps add penalty targets or vision barriers to force shots into safe directions.

[BayouSlide]

If this was a USPSA rule-based match this would present an interesting conundrum.

Per, 9.1.5.2: "If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored."

But from the multi-gun rules, engaging a steel target with a rifle at certain distances earns a DQ based on 5.3.19: "Firing a shot at a metal target from a distance of less than 23 feet with a handgun, 147 feet with a rifle, 23

feet with a shotgun when using birdshot or buckshot ammunition, or 147 feet when using slug

ammunition. The distance is measured from the face of the target to the nearest part of the competitor’s

body in contact with the ground (see Rule [10.1.3]).

Agreed, that the COF was very poorly designed and vetted to permit such a problem to arise.

Curtis

[MarkCO]

DQ, caused by bad stage design. It is still the competitors responsibility to know where his rounds are going.

Correct answer. Yes, bad course design which should not have been put on the ground that way.

[Bryan 45]

Just because it's part of a stage doesn't make it any less unsafe.

[alma]

Not in USPSA pistol rules.

Consider this:

"10.4.1 - A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply)."

Edited July 7, 2014 by alma

[MarkCO]

Not in USPSA pistol rules.

Consider this:

"10.4.1 - A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply)."

This has nothing to do with ricochets, not was Bryan talking about those.

[alma]

Same principle. Shooter engages a target in and legitimate way but failure of stages design causes safety issue with the rounds that passes through such that it would normally be a DQable offense. It is not the shooters fault.

[MarkCO]

Same principle. Shooter engages a target in and legitimate way but failure of stages design causes safety issue with the rounds that passes through such that it would normally be a DQable offense. It is not the shooters fault.

I would strongly suggest that you inquire of the rules committee before making such a large leap of faith. My understanding is that the rule you cited is purely due to ricochet potential, not an unsafe act. The principles are not even in the same zip code.

[alma]

What makes you think is involves only ricochets? I see nothing that implies that that in the wording of the rule but would agree that it would also cover ricochets.

If you don't want something shot then don't put it behind a target, blind to the shooter.

Edited July 7, 2014 by alma

[toothandnail]

If that was the only place to shoot it from , I'd agree with Alma, - and those who say BAD stage design

If the shooter was gaming (for lack of a better word) and shot it, I'd agree with the stage DQ

[Stlhead]

Post redacted.

[Bryan 45]

Not in USPSA pistol rules.

Consider this:

"10.4.1 - A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply)."

USPSA pistol rules have nothing to do with shooting a piece of steel at 10 yards with a rifle.

Bad stage, yes. Unsafe act with responsibility lying solely on the trigger finger of the shooter? Yes.

[RJH]

Check out 3gn rule 2.2.1 It says the same as the uspsa rule alma quoted. I believe the key phrase is: legitimately fires a shot at a target which then travels in an unsafe direction is not a dq. no DQ. Learn not to put things behind targets you don't want shot and read the rule book as competitors and stage designers.

[alma]

Right. Here is the 3GN rule :

"2.2.1 - A shot which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction deemed by the event organizers as being unsafe. However, a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which hits and then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified."

[alma]

Furthermore, "2.11 Engaging a steel target with rifle, closer than 50 yards is subject to DQ. (rule 8.3)"

"Note: For purposes of 3GN Rules, 'Engaged' means: To be in a position where the muzzle is in line of sight to target in question. Shooting in the general direction of target, shooting over obstructions that targets are behind or through see-through walls and/or barriers are not allowed."

It doesn't say DQ for hitting steel with the rifle, it says engaging the target. If you can't see it and are shooting through something else then you are not actually "engaging" it which is what is required for DQ.

Edited July 8, 2014 by alma

[Bryan 45]

Quote all the rules you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is unsafe.

We as shooters own each and every projectile until it's planted firmly in the berm.

[alma]

Quote all the rules you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is unsafe.

We as shooters own each and every projectile until it's planted firmly in the berm.

Sure but it does clarify who is not accountable and that the shooters should NOT be DQed for it under the current 3GN rule book. Edited July 8, 2014 by alma

[Bryan 45]

You agree that it's an unsafe act.

But, the rules say it's not the shooters fault.

Maybe that will make someone feel better on their trip to the hospital to get a piece of bullet jacket removed from their gut.

Just another reason I hate rules. The more rules, the bigger the book, none of it is a replacement for common sense.

[alma]

I believe that it is an unsafe situation. Common sense should be to fix the stage, not blame the shooter.

[MarkCO]

Alma's rule interpretation is not just wrong, it goes against the very fundamentals of the 4 laws of gun safety. The rule he quoted is only meant to protect a shooter who DOES obey the 4 laws of gun safety, but a ricochet bullet leaves the berm through no fault of his own doing.

May sound harsh, but it really is just a basic fundamental: If you can not abide by the 4 laws of gun safety, regardless of what any ruleset says, you should not be shooting at all! Your bullet hits someone...you own it, no one else...you are the final decision maker based on the entirety of the conditions when you pull the trigger...end of story...really.

[alma]

I am not interpreting it, I am reciting the rules. Just because you don't like them doesn't make it incorrect. A shoot-through is not Engaging and therefor not a DQ. If it is a legitimate shot that travels in an unsafe direction it is not a DQ. How can the rules be any more clear?

"2.2.1 - A shot which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction deemed by the event organizers as being unsafe. However, a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which hits and then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified."

"2.11 Engaging a steel target with rifle, closer than 50 yards is subject to DQ. (rule 8.3)"

"Note: For purposes of 3GN Rules, 'Engaged' means: To be in a position where the muzzle is in line of sight to target in question. Shooting in the general direction of target, shooting over obstructions that targets are behind or through see-through walls and/or barriers are not allowed."

Edited July 8, 2014 by alma