USPSA Activity Reports (IOs)

[jcwren]

You cannot use a solution that *requires* competitors to have equipment. A number of people don't have cell phones at all, much less smart phones. You're also requiring them to know how to use the Bluetooth capabilities of the phone. Unless you're supporting Bluetooth Low Energy, pairing becomes an obstacle (not all BT stacks support unpaired connections).

BT doesn't provide a solution for polling devices from a central location. Because of BT's limited range, now I'd have to go back to walking to each sarge to pull scores in the middle of a match.

BT as an additional mode would be nice, but there's no possible way for it to replace WiFi, and maintain the advantages that we get from that now.

[Vlad]

1) I also can't require the competitor to be able to read, thus paper might be too much. That is a bit of an extreme but so is telling me that people don't have cellphones, can you even buy non-smart phones now without considerable effort? I trust them to run around with $3000 firearm but I can't trust them to use a phone? Look, I know we have some older folks and some non-technical folks, but the world keeps marching forward and we need to look forward not backwards. If you really REALLY want to, have an RO copy the scores to a piece of paper for the shooter at a major match.

2) Paper doesn't a provide a way to poll from a central location either. Feel free to deploy wifi on range if you want that.

3) And if you can have wifi on the range, thats awesome, on at least one of the ranges I use we don't even have power on the range, nevermind multi node coverage of multiple acres with wifi.

[jcwren]

1) Trust? Who said anything about trust? It's about having the technology, and being familiar with it. Some people don't bring their phones out on the range because there's no coverage at a couple of the venues. Some prefer not to risk their expensive phone out there. Part of a successful match is providing services to the shooters, not shifting the burden to them for basic things like "If you want a copy of your scores, you better have a smart phone or table, and know how to use it, or you're just SOL." That's a crappy attitude. We put temporary WiFi out at a couple of the ranges, and permanent installations at others. Total cost for 2 nodes for a meshed network? Under $175, including the extension codes, Tupperware to weather-proof the power adapters, and the conduit to stick them 10 feet up in the air.

2) (I'm not even sure what that comment was supposed to mean).

3) You're from New Jersey, so it's not likely you've shot a match at East Alabama, but they don't have power either. Oh wait, these things they're called... oh, damn, what's the name... OH, right, BATTERIES! They put up a $75 outdoor rated AP on a pole, and throw a car battery on it for match days. Works great.

[Jim Norman]

OK, Let's us all take a deep breath and a step back away from the keyboards.

If we can add a wifi repeater at our range, I would do it. Even as a temporary Match day only item that only works as a local network.

I stopped by Staples the other day and there are Kindles that are daylight readable for around $100 in quantity. Not being a computer person I am not sure if they can be rooted, I do believe they are Android based.

I would like to see local printers that work, problems are: Power, Weather, Connectivity. Power can be solved with a few batteries. Weather is the biggest issue, Hot, Cold, Wet are not electronic friendly conditions. Hot as in Texas 115 degrees, wet as in don't look up you'll drown rain or just normal NJ Humidity, 90%+ some days and then of course Cold, as in my coffee freezes between the sip and the lip cold.

Here is an idea for a printer:

Refurbished: SAMSUNG SL-M2820DW Up to 29 ppm Monochrome Wireless 802.11b/g/n Laser Printer $59.95 each.

I am not sure how we'd go about setting them up. I know at our home range I could make do with maybe 4 to cover 7 stages. Power is still the issue, a 4D battery and an inverter costs at least $200. and the batteries are not light. If the range has power at the stages, then this is a simple solution, the issue is greater the more remote one gets. We could set up a solar charging station to keep the batteries charged between matches. more money but it might beat trucking 4-8 batteries back and forth. Ideally the printers would not require enormous amounts of power. Downside of this type of printer is it would use an 8-1/2 x 11 sheet for each shooter for each stage.

Something akin to the printers that people like Cintas use for their delivery drivers would be real nice. In fact a device like theirs that we would score on then hit print to output the receipt would be ideal.

[jcwren]

Jim, I won't discount those printers because I don't know what sort of stand-alone printing modes they may support, but *usually* they require a PCL or Postscript driver of some kind. In the olden days, you could actually send raw ASCII to a printer, and do some basic form control with various escape characters (like Epson's ESC/P control codes). Android and iOS aren't anywhere near as flexible in printing as a desktop OS like Linux, OSX or Windows.

Printing directly from a stage device to a printer may be difficult. I worked around that by putting the data I want to print as parameters in a URL request, and then printing them and piping them to Linux's 'lpr' command. You can install print filters to support various printers, so in theory I could print to a USB or Ethernet attached printer. You have to know exactly what printer type you're printing to, and printing under Linux isn't as seamless as printing under Windows or OSX.

It seems to be that for Android and iOS, the big thing is "cloud printing", but that generally requires more of a network infrastructure than is typically in place. iOS supports AirPrint, but that requires an AirPrint-enabled printer, and I don't believe there's a one-for-one service that's available on Android, or at least the versions supported by NOOKs or devices with earlier versions of Android.

There may be other ways to print. I imagine an application could be aware of specific printer types and generate the PCL or Postscript directly. I can't really see that happening on a NOOK.

You're correct about power, of course. Be aware that laser printers pull a LOT of power when the fuser cycles. I've ran a laser printer at East Alabama. I started out with a 2200VA UPS between the printer and the generator. Every time the fuser cycled the UPS would kick from standby to batteries. So I bypassed the UPS for that, but every time the printer cycled, the generator would bog down, and the UPS would switch to batteries. It got pretty annoying, so we pretty much left the printer off until it was time to print the final reports. Basically, I'm not sure that the average inverter is going to handle the surge when the fuser cycles.

Impact printers offer the best operating range. They're not affected by humidity like laser printers, temperature (or at least high temperatures) like thermal printers. They don't pull excessive amounts of power at any phase of their operation. They are available with auto-cutters, which is a nice (but pricey) feature. The downside is they tend to run a little heavy, and you do have to deal with ribbon replacement (which will dry out sooner in hot temperatures). Ribbons for receipt printers are very available, unlike trying to find a ribbon for your old Epson MX-80 or Centronics C700 printer. And a lot cheaper than laser cartridges.

Thermals are the best value, simply because the paper is the only consumable. But they are more susceptible to high temperature and humidity issues.

[wgnoyes]

Kindles don't need to be rooted. There's an android setting that says you'll accept apps from anywhere. Or (simpler) Practiscore is available in the Kindle App Store.

[jcwren]

Kindles don't need to be rooted. There's an android setting that says you'll accept apps from anywhere. Or (simpler) Practiscore is available in the Kindle App Store.

A Kindle Fire does not need to be rooted. A Kindle Paperwhite does not run Android (it runs a Linux variant with a custom eBook app).

[ZackJones]

I'm not saying this is a perfect solution. It's an idea, with proof-of-concept. Rather than talking about doing things, I'm trying to implement them, test their viability.

And for doing so you have the thanks from me and several other USPSA shooters. Carry on with your concepts. You are making a difference.

[jdonohue]

(Practiscore can already create the activity upload file.)

But only in the IOs not Android version, correct?

Ditto what Jim asked here. I'm running android 1.2.18 on a Nexus 7 (Asus) tablet and a Motorola MB865 smartphone. I have looked in Menu Trees;

1) SYNC./(exports), and

2) View Results/Stage Results/(classifier stage)/By Division

and do not see anything other then the ability to export/email scores.

If 1.2.18 on your android device can create/export a USPSA activity/classifier report, please specify the exact menu tree to that function.

Alternatively; is a 1.64 version ( with comparable function to iOS 1.64) for android in the works in the forseeable future?

While I'm being a PIA here, I'll add one more. Is anyone working on a way to get a Practiscore version that runs on the currently available Nook e-readers (now that the simple touch models have gone the way of the dinosaurs, dodo bird, and passenger pigeon)?

[jester121]

1.2.18 does not support activity/classifier creation or upload.

Android and IOS releases appear to be on different branches, with different features popping up at different times. I'd speculate that yes, eventually Android will have the file creation/upload functionality, in some form.

No, the current Nook e-readers (the cheap ones) don't run Android operating system, thus no Android-based apps.

[bikerburgess]

1.2.18 does not support activity/classifier creation or upload.

Android and IOS releases appear to be on different branches, with different features popping up at different times. I'd speculate that yes, eventually Android will have the file creation/upload functionality, in some form.

No, the current Nook e-readers (the cheap ones) don't run Android operating system, thus no Android-based apps.

did you mean Kindle e- readers? I know the nook simple touch can be rooted (thats what we are running) and I have seen rooting mentioned for the nook glow lights (the newer e-ink nook with a back light) I know the Kindle e-ink screened readers are non android

[wgnoyes]

..

Edited July 28, 2014 by wgnoyes

[jcwren]

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=49665945&postcount=279

It's all propeller headery, but it can be done. The new NOOKs lack the side bezel buttons, which I *really* like.

By doing some repartition of the flash memory in the NOOK, you can create something that looks like an SD card to make Dropbox happy. It doesn't need to be very large, as the PS .apk file is small. 8MB would be more than enough, as long as you delete files when you're done with them.

[ZackJones]

I know must of you don't deal with steel challenge but it's a big deal for me. This past weekend I was able to use my iPad as master and then generate and email to myself the activity/score report for steel challenge. Unlike USPSA steel challenge uses a single report for activity fee and match results. I'm happy to report the upload worked like a champ. I'm hoping that now that Russell can do it for steel challenge he'll be able to knock it out for you USPSA match directors.

[pcarst]

[snip]

One, We get legible score data that has only a single point for input error. The RO puts the score into the system and that is that. no illegible scrawls to be figured out later, no errors transposing numbers, no fat finger errors.

[snip]

I disagree. The problem now is that there is no effective way for a competitor to validate the scores that were entered. It's much more difficult for a competitor to review the scores on the device than on paper. First, there's pressure (overt or not) to get the next shooter up, since the last shooter can't review the scores until entry is complete. Second, they're usually always presented with the summary screen. If the competitor thinks he's scored 2-A on target number 6, rather than glancing at the score sheet before he signs it, it now becomes much more of an ordeal.

Handing the device to a competitor to review the scores is questionable. Unless an RO is riding herd 100% of the time, the competitor has an opportunity to "fix" their scores. Does it happen? I don't know. Has it happened? I don't know. If I'm using an iOS device with local scoring logs enabled, I can review for any edits. That doesn't exist in the Android version, and likely won't for some time.

I've seen plenty of times when scorers forget to save the last score of the last person on a stage. Luckily, back-up sheets have covered that for us.

In fact, for major matches, I've had discussions with several people where we've come to question if using PS is the best thing to do. When a score is committed to paper, it's generally pretty easy to tell if it's been tampered with. With PractiScore, there's a large degree of trust. While there is an "approve" button on the iOS version (maybe Android also, I can't recall offhand), it's not really the same as a signature. It does, in theory, mean that the competitor has looked at their scores. However, see paragraph #1. There's no check by experienced scoring staff. There's a limited version of checking for missing scoresheets, but it's not yet as good as what EzWinScore provides.

I think where PractiScore really shines is local matches. Now I don't have to spend 3 hours on a Sunday entering 600 scores, and dealing with the un-totaled columns and rows, poor handwriting, missing times, and the like. But at an L2+ match, where staff checks score sheets for completeness, legibility, the shooter gets a copy, the possibility of data entry errors, and everything else that goes on, it wouldn't bother me greatly if paper scoring were used for that. For L1 matches, I never want to see a scoresheet again.

The L1 and L2+ matches are different worlds, and for the L2+ matches, considering the amount of work we still have to do for a match, I'm not adverse to using traditional methods for that.

LOL, I find just the opposite. Area Matches run almost flawless on PractiScore whereas the L1 weekly matches are where all the problems are found. It is not the fault of PractiScore, it is the fact that large matches are staffed by assigned, trained (and hopefully certified) ROs whereas the local matches are run by the last shooter in the shooting order who is assigned the clock or the pad until it is their turn to shoot and then it gets passed onto the next person. Consistency becomes a rare quality, as is being careful to follow the pretty damn simple procedures to successfully run a PS match.

We also don't have to worry much about the registration process for L3 matches unlike the show up and shoot experience of a weekly match. Yes, L3 matches are significantly more work but that work is done by dedicated people that are focused on doing their jobs. L1 matches are the real PITA for us but after spending big $$$ on the PS and wireless system, I am not going to "save" the equipment for just a couple times a year.

[Jim Norman]

I have to more or less agree with the post immediately preceding this. We have 'Fat Fingers", we have "I didn't check to see that i have the correct shooter", We have the shooter that fails to take a look at his scores, we have the RO that doesn't make sure he is getting all the shots recorded and I am sure just about every other error.

[2MoreChains]

Yeah, but some of those same problems exist regardless of the scoring medium.

At least with the tablets I don't have to decipher somebody's illegible handwriting, somebody's poor addition skills, a scorer/RO who only recorded 11 out of 12 targets, have to figure out if the "II" in the NS or Procedural box is two hashmarks or if some poor bastid really had eleven NS/procedurals, really bad handwriting, missing scoresheets that blew away in the wind or went home in somebody's range bag, really bad handwriting, when a shooter only wrote down "Joe" on his score sheet and there are 3 people named Joe at the match, and have I mentioned really bad handwriting?

Personally after switching to PS last spring I'm thankful to have it and do not relish the idea of going back to paper scoring and EZwinScore.

Had a crazy thought at the last match: Man, wouldn't it be cool if the shot timer was built into the tablet and auto populated the time? But that's just lazy talk...!

[Jim Norman]

2MoreChains,

We are 100% in agreement. Sadly we will never, at least at the local level, get past the slovenly record keeping on the stages. Electronic scoring is the only way to go. I would make two upgrades I think to where we are.

1) Steel should have to be recorded, not assumed.

2) The scores need to be PW protected once saved. They can be re=reviewed as many times as you like, but only the man with the magic words can open them up to edit.

The rest of the issues with PS appear to be being handled pretty well. The fast rooting app that even I can use is pretty good. I would leave the ability to Email intact. Also, I'd like to be able to insert my own wallpaper. We have that on the ones one of our tech people rooted. Really nice as we include a 'If Found, please Call XXX-XXX-XXXX in the wallpaper.

[RadarTech]

2MoreChains,

We are 100% in agreement. Sadly we will never, at least at the local level, get past the slovenly record keeping on the stages. Electronic scoring is the only way to go. I would make two upgrades I think to where we are.

1) Steel should have to be recorded, not assumed.

2) The scores need to be PW protected once saved. They can be re=reviewed as many times as you like, but only the man with the magic words can open them up to edit.

The rest of the issues with PS appear to be being handled pretty well. The fast rooting app that even I can use is pretty good. I would leave the ability to Email intact. Also, I'd like to be able to insert my own wallpaper. We have that on the ones one of our tech people rooted. Really nice as we include a 'If Found, please Call XXX-XXX-XXXX in the wallpaper.

Have you considered asking that ps have the password protection added?

[jcwren]

A password is not that trivial to add and manage. We've asked for a way to lock down stage devices where they can only score (no shooter add/edits, stage add/edits, etc). This is a subset of that requested functionality.

The issue is that because there's no real master device (PractiScore is effectively peer to peer), you run into issues of people being able to lock themselves out of a match. If you sync from one device to another, does the password go with it, effectively locking out a competitor from playing "what if?". If you don't, then what happens if you forgot it? If you sync that stage device from somewhere else, and the password is thrown away, anyone remotely seriously about editing can defeat it. What if you have to *legitimately* edit a score? Hold up scoring until the MD/RM/stats person can get over to unlock it? What if someone maliciously sets a password on an unlocked device?

The current solution, on the iOS side, is the scoring logs. You can tell what's been edited, at what time, on what device. Unfortunately, the Android version doesn't yet support this.

[jcwren]

2MoreChains,

We are 100% in agreement. Sadly we will never, at least at the local level, get past the slovenly record keeping on the stages. Electronic scoring is the only way to go. I would make two upgrades I think to where we are.

1) Steel should have to be recorded, not assumed.

2) The scores need to be PW protected once saved. They can be re=reviewed as many times as you like, but only the man with the magic words can open them up to edit.

The rest of the issues with PS appear to be being handled pretty well. The fast rooting app that even I can use is pretty good. I would leave the ability to Email intact. Also, I'd like to be able to insert my own wallpaper. We have that on the ones one of our tech people rooted. Really nice as we include a 'If Found, please Call XXX-XXX-XXXX in the wallpaper.

"Steel should have to be recorded, not assumed"? For Dog's sake, WHY? If you have 30 pieces of steel on a stage, or even 12, do you want to have to tap the steel hits button that many times?

I really can't see a legitimate reason to force steel to be recorded. Recording the misses is much more efficient and less error prone.

[2MoreChains]

Yeah, I would support keeping steel the way it is. I haven't had any issues with that at any of the L1/2/3/4 matches that I've worked, though we do call out "All Steel" when scoring just to verify we've mentally checked that box.

With regard to the p/w, preventing nefarious access to the tablets at L2/3/4 matches is easier to manage since only the RO and staff are the ones inputing the scores. At L1 matches they get passed around the squad, so I can see where the concern is that somebody might try and alter their score... but I guess I'm not too concerned with that since such actions are already in contravention of the rules and while it may benefit their scores at a L1 match they had to cheat in order to do so. Monkeying with your classifier times to grandbag your classification is only going to hurt you when you get beat by a bunch of lower classed shooters at a big match.

Besides, I'm sure people can come up with much more creative ways than changing their scores in a Nook. Sorry for the thread drift.

[RadarTech]

I can't speak for all-- but I suspect that after this years issues- any MD would 10.6 anyone found manipulating scores.. and sadly many feel they are having to watch for that now...

[Jim Norman]

On the steel I am ok with a compromise. Mark them all hit, but have to accept that hey are all hit, or start marking misses and then accept.

On PW, not being a techie, I sort of understand what was said above regarding the difficulties.

I am simply going to announce that NO ONE should change a shooter for any reason. Simply mark any required changes on the squad list and I'll do it.

If someone gets caught changing a score, they probably will want to find another place to shoot as not very many of the people I shoot with would make them feel all warm and fuzzy shooting at any of our locations again.

[pcarst]

A password is not that trivial to add and manage. We've asked for a way to lock down stage devices where they can only score (no shooter add/edits, stage add/edits, etc). This is a subset of that requested functionality.

The issue is that because there's no real master device (PractiScore is effectively peer to peer), you run into issues of people being able to lock themselves out of a match. If you sync from one device to another, does the password go with it, effectively locking out a competitor from playing "what if?". If you don't, then what happens if you forgot it? If you sync that stage device from somewhere else, and the password is thrown away, anyone remotely seriously about editing can defeat it. What if you have to *legitimately* edit a score? Hold up scoring until the MD/RM/stats person can get over to unlock it? What if someone maliciously sets a password on an unlocked device?

The current solution, on the iOS side, is the scoring logs. You can tell what's been edited, at what time, on what device. Unfortunately, the Android version doesn't yet support this.

Yeah, we had some shooter info changed (not scores) on a stage this past weekend by someone that wanted to "help out" stats. They were given a talk and told not to do that but that simple should not be allowed programmatically. Stage devices should be stage devices, not fully capable of doing stats work best done centrally.