toracha Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 I recently sent this to IDPA, it sums up my feelings and experiences. Hi there, My name is Sean and I would like to tell you about my new membership to the IDPA. In December of 2004 I was invited to take place in a shooting match in Deerfield Wisconsin run by the group called the IDPA. I was leary, as I previously shot IPSC and found the “race guns” and “rule restrictions” to be unrealistic and unpractical. I was told that IDPA was differnt. I was pleasantly suprised. I got the the Deerfield match, and sure enough, the legal gear was the same as my “off-duty concealed carry” gear! The people were friendly, the courses challenging, and there was NO race guns! Everyone was shooting practical everyday real life scenario stuff. I was EXTREMELY happy and excited. The following week my father bought me a membership. Yesterday, January 8, 2004 I went to my 2nd IDPA match in Deerfield. All my shooting friend gathered around and told me about these “new rules” which were implemented the past Thursday. I thought that I was going to be physically ill. I come to find out that the off duty equipment that I carry as a professional, is not considered legal (the holster rotates, i carry it at a 90deg angle) and the the equipment of some fellow members was not legal. There was major talk about turing in our IDPA memberships, there were jokes about how IDPA stands for “I Don’t Participate Anymore”, how this change is the “best membership drive IPSC has ever had,” and how and about how all this change happened without any notice what so ever. I think that it is ashame that the rules were changed in the manner that they were. I find it ironic that the very reason that I joined IDPA, the fact that it was practical and real life now dictates what equipment is “practical” even though I carry the equipment professionally on a daily basis. I find it sickning that all but 2 people in a group of approx 25 were illegal, yet if they were to particiapte in an IPSC match, ALL of us would have been legal. What is even worse is that on top of it all, the “President of IDPA” has all legal equipment, all that the members can buy... how ironic, how sick. Is is disgusting that you would drive away members... volunteers that pay to be a part of an organization that does not pay them to run matches and recruit new members, would not change the rules at the drop of a feather. It is ashame that my IPSC membership fee will cost me less then to become “legal” in IDPA. I am not sure if it is worth it. Our group, as have many others are debating whether we should create our own league. We have all been sent the message that IDPA does not value its members and does not care about the people that make up its organizations. If I give up my membership, it will be the shortest membership and commitment that I have ever had to an organization. The decisions that were made will have catastrophic consequences to the membership and the organization... I hope that someone has realized that. I hope that everyone at “the top” has taken a moment to read the forums, read the feeback and to LISTEN to its members... otherwise I am sure that I will see you at an IPSC match real soon!!!!! I am a very disheartened, disgusted and saddened (former?) member. Sincerely, Sean Sun Prairie, WI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Where is Sun Prairie and Deerfield? I grew up in Green Bay ... been livin' with the mud-ducks for the last 18yrs. Just waitin' on the game. We've been sharing an indoor range with an IDPA club. I've heard some bickering about what's better. I'm afriad the IDPA club may have gotten the short-end due to an inordinate number of newbies. I own a G34 ... but, for the last few matches, I've competed with a P226 and Mitch Rosen OWB leather ... and done about as well as I ever have with my Glock 34. I wouldn't really consider either a reasonable concealed-carry piece ... but that's just my opinion. Maybe what USPSA could use ... uh oh ... here we go again ... is another division ... kinda like IDPA BUG (what ever happened with that anyhow?) ... I've got a sweet little Defender just itchin' for a fight. I just don't understand the animosity to having race-guns show up to the same match ... it's not like you have to compete with 'em if you don't want to. I shot with the IDPA club all last winter ... no, that doesn't make me an expert. But, from what I could tell, the equipment had little to nothing to do with any differences with USPSA. In fact, while the rules might allow otherwise, it seemed that CDP was the same as Ltd-10 and SSP was the same as Prod. The only differences I saw was you couldn't drop loaded mags and you had to pretend to use cover available ... nothing wrong with that. Anyhow, just last week, while I was competing with my P226, I got to see a Master compete with his race-gun ... and every time I see it I think it's pretty neat ... then I don't feel so bad about missing Jim Scouten. I'm really not trying to get into any debate here ... I'm just really curious as to what, exactly, you didn't like about competing in Prod, Ltd-10, or Ltd? To be fair, I suppose I should say why I don't shoot IDPA anymore. Really, it's just that I started with USPSA before I knew IDPA existed and that's where my friends are. I tried IDPA for a while and always felt like I was bustin' ass tryin' to keep newbies from gettin' DQ'd. And I got tired of gettin' procedurals for droppin' loaded mags and getting creative with 2-to-the-body-1-to-the-head. All things combined, I guess I just wasn't having nearly as much fun. But, I could see trying it again ... knowing the rules ... and getting used to 'em. Then again, in our area, USPSA matches seem to out-number IPDA matches by about 5 to 1 ... unless I'm on the wrong email list. Still, I have nothing against IDPA or anyone who prefers that slightly different style. FWIW, so long as it's not a classifier, I see no reason you can't just agree to your own set of equipment rules. Pay IDPA their dues as usual ... you've still gotta support the sport. And if they don't want your money anymore, they'll let you know. None of any of the rest of this is directed at you Sean ... just sounding off again. I will say one thing ... my buddy bought a 5in 625 thinkin' he could use it in IDPA as well ... and, apparently, IDPA decided to change the limit to 4in ... I think that's pretty lame. I'm unaware of any recent changes ... sounds like it's not going well though. FWIW, I think XD's and Glocks belong in Prod about as much as they belong in Revolver ... nothing against 'em personally ... I just think there's a big difference between 2nd-strike and what might be considered DA ... so I don't think IDPA has exclusive rights on not meeting certain expectations. Actually, I kinda feel for the guys runnin' the show ... they're always trying to maintain a level playing field ... and there's always someone trying to squeeze just a little bit more advantage out of it. And if ya try to take a more philosophical approach, you end up with LOTS 'o divisions ... some with no willing participants. Not to mention the law-degree you'd need to figure out if you're 100% compliant. Anyhow, I think this whole us vs. them mentallity is pretty ridiculous. I can see trying to stick with one or the other while you try to improve your fundamentals ... but if either IDPA or USPSA ultimately fails, would any of us truly be better off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toracha Posted January 10, 2005 Author Share Posted January 10, 2005 Hey there Duece... I will have to take more time to read what you wrote.. but i am gone for 4 days and wanted to at least thank you for your insight. I think that one of the best points you make is exactlly what our "group" has been talking about.. ie run an IDPA local match but not worry if someones holster is the perfect "legal" My biggest concern when writing the letter is that I do not want a good organization with great ideas fall though because someone made some decisions. Also, if i did not say it... it is not the rule chages per se that I have a problem with it was the manner in which they were implemented. They were a total surprise with no prep for them... We just feel out of the loop... like we missed the boat. I would love to chat more as soon as i get home! Oh, Sun Prairie is 2+ miles north up USH 151 from Madison. Deerfield is right off of I94 about 10 miles (give or take) east from Madison. If you ever get down here it would be great if you could come to one of our meets. IF you have not, check out: www.wisconsinidpa.com for match details!! later, sean PS I really appreciate the open dialogue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 I got the the Deerfield match, and sure enough, the legal gear was the same as my “off-duty concealed carry” gear! ...snip...I come to find out that the off duty equipment that I carry as a professional, is not considered legal (the holster rotates, i carry it at a 90deg angle) and the the equipment of some fellow members was not legal. For one thing the IDPA holster list has been frozen for over a year. The holster changes have not been a secret by any stretch. None of the "roto" style holsters have been legal that I'm aware of even prior to the new rulebook. There's nothing stopping you from shooting from your ON DUTY rig and signing up as LE. Or using an alternate holster that fits the rules. Don't want to spend a few buck for a new holster? Don't shoot. Simple huh? There was major talk about turing in our IDPA memberships, there were jokes about how IDPA stands for “I Don’t Participate Anymore”, how this change is the “best membership drive IPSC has ever had,” and how and about how all this change happened without any notice what so ever. What at first started to sound like an honest letter this statement negated. What's your objective with this comment? How do you turn in your membership anyway? Have a IDPA membership card burning party? Woo Hoo! I think that it is ashame that the rules were changed in the manner that they were. I find it ironic that the very reason that I joined IDPA, the fact that it was practical and real life now dictates what equipment is “practical” even though I carry the equipment professionally on a daily basis. I find it sickning that all but 2 people in a group of approx 25 were illegal, yet if they were to particiapte in an IPSC match, ALL of us would have been legal. What is even worse is that on top of it all, the “President of IDPA” has all legal equipment, all that the members can buy... how ironic, how sick. What manner bests suits YOU for announcing rules changes? What I find interesting is that only 2 people of 25 at this club have holsters, and mag carriers that are legal by the new rules. The kit I've been using for 3 divisions have all been legal since I started 5 years ago and still are today. Secondly, on what do you base your comment about Bill Wilson's equipment being illegal? Funny, I saw him use a custom leather rig at the nationals shooting a Commander sized 1911. Anything but illegal. If all that matters to you is your current holster being legal I think you are just looking for a reason to b*tch. You know if you're going to fire off letters like this, it's best to at least be well versed and factual in your statements. Duece wrote:I will say one thing ... my buddy bought a 5in 625 thinkin' he could use it in IDPA as well ... and, apparently, IDPA decided to change the limit to 4in ... I think that's pretty lame. I'm unaware of any recent changes ... sounds like it's not going well though. For what it's worth IDPA announced the 4" revolver rule change a FULL 2 YEARS before it was implemented. A little research on your buddy's part might have saved him some $$. In order for criticism to be constructive, it must be based in fact. Unfortunately you both fail in this respect turning this thread one of many useless wastes of bandwidth. Don't like IDPA. Don't play the game. For some reason I guess you think you'll be missed. Perhaps, perhaps not. Obviously IDPA is not for you and who's fault is that? I guess some folks just feel the need to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 I got the the Deerfield match, and sure enough, the legal gear was the same as my “off-duty concealed carry” gear! ...snip...I come to find out that the off duty equipment that I carry as a professional, is not considered legal (the holster rotates, i carry it at a 90deg angle) and the the equipment of some fellow members was not legal. For one thing the IDPA holster list has been frozen for over a year. The holster changes have not been a secret by any stretch. None of the "roto" style holsters have been legal that I'm aware of even prior to the new rulebook. There's nothing stopping you from shooting from your ON DUTY rig and signing up as LE. Or using an alternate holster that fits the rules. Don't want to spend a few buck for a new holster? Don't shoot. Simple huh? There was major talk about turing in our IDPA memberships, there were jokes about how IDPA stands for “I Don’t Participate Anymore”, how this change is the “best membership drive IPSC has ever had,” and how and about how all this change happened without any notice what so ever. What at first started to sound like an honest letter this statement negated. What's your objective with this comment? How do you turn in your membership anyway? Have a IDPA membership card burning party? Woo Hoo! I think that it is ashame that the rules were changed in the manner that they were. I find it ironic that the very reason that I joined IDPA, the fact that it was practical and real life now dictates what equipment is “practical” even though I carry the equipment professionally on a daily basis. I find it sickning that all but 2 people in a group of approx 25 were illegal, yet if they were to particiapte in an IPSC match, ALL of us would have been legal. What is even worse is that on top of it all, the “President of IDPA” has all legal equipment, all that the members can buy... how ironic, how sick. What manner bests suits YOU for announcing rules changes? What I find interesting is that only 2 people of 25 at this club have holsters, and mag carriers that are legal by the new rules. The kit I've been using for 3 divisions have all been legal since I started 5 years ago and still are today. Secondly, on what do you base your comment about Bill Wilson's equipment being illegal? Funny, I saw him use a custom leather rig at the nationals shooting a Commander sized 1911. Anything but illegal. If all that matters to you is your current holster being legal I think you are just looking for a reason to b*tch. You know if you're going to fire off letters like this, it's best to at least be well versed and factual in your statements. Duece wrote:I will say one thing ... my buddy bought a 5in 625 thinkin' he could use it in IDPA as well ... and, apparently, IDPA decided to change the limit to 4in ... I think that's pretty lame. I'm unaware of any recent changes ... sounds like it's not going well though. For what it's worth IDPA announced the 4" revolver rule change a FULL 2 YEARS before it was implemented. A little research on your buddy's part might have saved him some $$. In order for criticism to be constructive, it must be based in fact. Unfortunately you both fail in this respect turning this thread one of many useless wastes of bandwidth. Don't like IDPA. Don't play the game. For some reason I guess you think you'll be missed. Perhaps, perhaps not. Obviously IDPA is not for you and who's fault is that? I guess some folks just feel the need to share. Wow, Mayo, where to start - I'm sure toracha can defend himself, but I wanted to point out a few things (FWIW, I shoot mostly USPSA, but also some IDPA.... I enjoy both, but now find that my Uncle Mike Holsters for my Glock and 1911 are now illegal in IDPA... and both conceal on me just fine) My comments are in the brackets < > "Don't want to spend a few buck for a new holster? Don't shoot. Simple huh?" <What a great solution. Tell all of your new shooters that if they aren't willing to spend money on a new holster and gear they should just go away. You're advocating peole to buy competition holsters, regardless of what they actually carry with? And yes, if you bought them just to play a game like IDPA, by definition you bought them for competition.> "What's your objective with this comment? How do you turn in your membership anyway? Have a IDPA membership card burning party? Woo Hoo!" <For what its worth, this last weekend at an IPSC match there were about 10 IDPA shooters their for their first or second USPSA match, and many were saying similar things - he's just trying to convey the sense of frustration out there.> "Secondly, on what do you base your comment about Bill Wilson's equipment being illegal?" <If you read the post more carefully you'd see he plainly states Bill Wilson's gear is ALL LEGAL, and is more than willing to sell you some just like it, not that his gear was ILLEGAL.> "Don't like IDPA. Don't play the game. For some reason I guess you think you'll be missed." <Once again, real sympathetic. The guy was thinking he had found his niche; tactically minded individuals that practice tactcial shooting, with real world equipment rather than race guns, and IDPA burst his bubble his very first month in. At this rate you'll have IDPA shooters, new or otherwise, running in droves.> I want to see both IDPA and USPSA be wildly successful, as both are great shooting sports, so don't think I'm slamming IDPA. Every post that critiques something about IDPA is not IDPA or Wilson bashing, most are intended to provide feedback about issues the IDPA members feel they have little input on. A little more understanding and sincere reaction from IDPA and its more "established" members to some of this discussion would do wonders for everyones attitude. Now I'm sure that this post will be flamed as well, have at it. SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Locked to allow for a cooling off period. If anyone has comments that they'd like to add, feel free to PM me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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