LGator Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Ok since everyone is beating the revolver and holster stuff to death I thought I'd start another mess. Read Appendix 5 of the new rules and tell me what you think of the new additions. My comments are in [boxes] Mainly these two; 1.The distance that a shooter must travel in any scenario is clearly an issue. Any movement of the shooter between firing points must not exceed ten (10) yards. Few self-defense scenarios require the shooter to run or cover a very long distance. We do not wish to see IDPA matches turn into track and field events. By allowing courses of fire to exceed fifteen (15) yards of total movement, foot speed, not shooting ability, begins to be rewarded. The Vickers Count scoring system is very good when applied to shooting, but it becomes distorted when time is excessive for long distances of travel or the need to negotiate obstacles requiring more time than the actual shooting. [ I guess our fullsize shoothouse is no longer considered tactical] 2. Slide Lock reloads are the recommended type of reload in IDPA. Statistics show that this happens in the real world, regardless of intention or training. Tactical reloads and reloads with retention are intended for use during lulls in the action and should not be required on the clock. [ So we are only doing speed reloads now? So should everyone only load 6 rds now and shoot to slide lock? I don't see how you can design a course for this when we have 5 divisions (plus BUG) that all have different ammunition capacities. Input appreciated, 'cause I don't think I'm reading this correctly.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I'll bite 1. you can still run your shoot house, but it will just have to be more than one string... 2. it says Slide Lock reloads are the recommended type of reload in IDPA so it doesn't say you have to do them it's just recommended.... sno if you want something to get worked up about look at cof #8 with this rule you can never set an non threat target in front of a threat target. and you gonna have to really look at your target placement otherwise if a shooter does manage to hit two targets at the same time the stage will have to be pulled from the match....bad stage design.... sno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I would have written the rule to address gratuitous movement, i.e. when there are no shooting challenges. If you have more than 15 yards worth of shooting on the move, I don't see a problem with it. But then my opinion doesn't count for much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I'll add my unofficial opinion to #2. Sounds like they would like to see rwr's abolished as prescribed reloads. Shooters should load to division capacity and reload as they run dry through the string. Sounds like shooters are still allowed a reload with retention. Sometimes makes sense (usually movement behind cover) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 [ I guess our fullsize shoothouse is no longer considered tactical] Do scenarios set up inside the full-size shoothouse require people to run more than 15 yards between shooting positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 [ So we are only doing speed reloads now? So should everyone only load 6 rds now and shoot to slide lock? I don't see how you can design a course for this when we have 5 divisions (plus BUG) that all have different ammunition capacities. Input appreciated, 'cause I don't think I'm reading this correctly.] I like it. One bitch some people have had with IDPA (Hi, Michael!) was the idea of using tac-loads and RWRs in the middle of a stage. IDPA HQ has now admitted that's not a good idea. Of course, they haven't said you can't use one or the other if you desire, and I'm sure, if the oppotunity arises to run a faster time using those techniques, people will do it. I do wish IDPA would allow slide forward reloads. But I have to say that making the slidelock reload the most used skill in the tool box does make IMMENSELY more sense than the old attitude we find among among clueless firearms instructors that shooting your gun to slidelock constitutes a "dead man's gun." If you've never seen this attitude, it goes like this: at a class, as soon as the shooter's slide locks back, the instructor begins chanting merrily, "Dead man's gun, dead man's gun, you are deeeeaaaad!" What a moron. What irresponsible BS. That seems to me akin to programming your students to die. I'm sure there's been some hapless soul out there in the middle of a gunfight who's emptied his gun, and at the instant his slide locks back he "hears" his instructor's voice saying, "Dead man's gun, dead man's gun!" And so he quits fighting and dies. My attitude (and what I believe should be taught) is, "I don't have a 'dead man's gun.' I have a temporarily empty gun that I will swiftly reload and continue on to win the fight." Might as well practice that at a match, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Looks like the exact wording from the old rule book: "The distance that a shooter must travel in any scenario is clearly an issue, also. Any movement of the shooter between firing points must not exceed ten yards. We do not wish to see IDPA matches turn into track and field events. Think about it; few self-defense scenarios require the shooter to run or cover a very long distance. If clubs allow their stages of fire to exceed more than 15 yards of total movement, they begin to reward foot speed, not shooting ability. Our Vickers Count scoring system is very good when applied to shooting, but it becomes distorted when time is excessive for long distances of travel or the need to negotiate obstacles requiring more time than the actual shooting. Beware of course design that places too much effort in moving over a long distance or getting around obstacles." geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 [ I guess our fullsize shoothouse is no longer considered tactical] Do scenarios set up inside the full-size shoothouse require people to run more than 15 yards between shooting positions? Duane, that's ten yards between positions now AND 15 yards total movement for the stage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Hmmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 This is not a change in the rule book the same statement was in the LGB as Geezer-lock pointed out. No where does it say you cannot run a stage with more than 15yds of movement. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dub Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Add we will have to remember this from the Glossary when designing a CoF. "Revolver Neutral: A descriptive term for a CoF which does not call for revolver shooters to do impossible things. This does NOT mean that every CoF should require six (6) rounds or less. This does mean that, if a CoF requires a tactical reload, the tactical reload will be called for before six (6) rounds have been expended.You cannot ask a person with an empty gun to retain unexpended rounds. Think of revolvers when designating cover, reloads and stage requirements." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGator Posted January 7, 2005 Author Share Posted January 7, 2005 [ I guess our fullsize shoothouse is no longer considered tactical] Do scenarios set up inside the full-size shoothouse require people to run more than 15 yards between shooting positions? Duane Well, from the front of the house to the back is about 30 yards. Targets are placed in various locations that require shooters to move in and out of the numerous rooms in the house. We usually run it as a par time stage so as long as you keep moving you can do the house under time. I think the no shoot through target placement is a big deal also. I forgot to mention it earlier. I always thought that needing to be aware of possible shoot-throughs was a "real life" aspect of IDPA. I hate to say it but I think these new changes will result in more clubs doing their own thing outside of the IDPA guidelines, which isn't bad until you go to a state or national match. -LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Okay, am I correct in determining you're saying there isn't more than 10 yards between firing points? If so, that would mean the full-size shoot house would still be legal (assuming any IDPA MD would be lucky enough to have access to such a thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 This is in the book twice and it is a bit different in each case: CoF 3: Shooter movement of more than ten (10) yards between firing points and fifteen (15) yards total movement in a string of fire is not permitted. Appendix Five, Course Design Rationale: The distance that a shooter must travel in any scenario is clearly an issue. Any movement of the shooter between firing points must not exceed ten (10) yards. Few self-defense scenarios require the shooter to run or cover a very long distance. We do not wish to see IDPA matches turn into track and field events. By allowing courses of fire to exceed fifteen (15) yards of total movement, foot speed, not shooting ability, begins to be rewarded. The Vickers Count scoring system is very good when applied to shooting, but it becomes distorted when time is excessive for long distances of travel or the need to negotiate obstacles requiring more time than the actual shooting. Appendix Eleven, Glossary: Stage: See “CoF”. CoF: Course of Fire. String: Section of a CoF initiated by a start signal, ending with the last shot fired. There may be more than one string per CoF. In both cases the text reads 15 yards total movement. CoF 3 says "in a string of fire" but Appendix Five says "courses of fire". This is contradictory based on the definitions presented in the Glossary. HQ will need to decide which one they actually want to enforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGator Posted January 7, 2005 Author Share Posted January 7, 2005 Okay, am I correct in determining you're saying there isn't more than 10 yards between firing points? If so, that would mean the full-size shoot house would still be legal (assuming any IDPA MD would be lucky enough to have access to such a thing). That depends on how we set the targets. Usually it is a target rich hose fest but sometimes they are few and far between so competators never fully know what to expect. I'm sure we could set it so there is no more than 10 yards between targets but the 15 yards total movement is the killer. Vincent; If they aren't allowing more than 15 yards total movement in a stage then they need to come up with a new classifier. Stage 2 requires 10yards forward movement and the same going back for a total of 20 yards. I guess they have some bugs to squash yet. Maybe we shouldn't be worried about any of this yet. -LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 30 yard shoothouse? That's cool. Since the one part of the rulebook says 15 yards max in a "string" of fire, I guess make it a two string stage, off the clock tac load in beween. Good to go. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 If they aren't allowing more than 15 yards total movement in a stage then they need to come up with a new classifier. Stage 2 requires 10yards forward movement and the same going back for a total of 20 yards. Those are two separate strings of fire. Not one continuous stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kend Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Those are two separate strings of fire. Not one continuous stage. And they are 5 yard movements, not 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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