I don't know how the military does it with the .308

[38superman]

Nuke,

Actually I kind of like the idea of trying my hand at F-class.

Benchrest shooters are purists and go to great extremes.

They are obsessive and the lengths they go to on case prep etc. are way beyond what us mere mortals would do.

Most hunters are more than happy with 3 shots in 1 to 1 1/2" at 100.

Precision Tactical shooters want as much as they can get but 1/2 to 3/4 moa is generally acceptable for a sniper match.

Never shot F class so I don't know what it takes to be competitive in that arena.

I do know that short range benchrest guys shoot bug hole groups routinely but their equipment is extreme.

I spent the day at the range today and I thought I would take Walt Bergers advice.

He states in his manual that the sweet spot for seating depth is in a range of about .040"

He recommends starting at touching or nearly touching the rifling and changing depth in increments of .040 until you have about .160 freebore

At each depth shoot (2) three shot groups. One depth should produce significantly better results than the others. That is the "sweet spot".

I tried this with the Berger 155 Hybrids because I already had some on my bench.

The best 3 shot group in my preliminary testing with Re15 was at 44.5 grs. when loaded to mag length.

I decided to go with one five shot group instead of 2 three shot and vary length in .030 increments.

The results I got are shown below.

The longest OAL that would be held securely by the neck was 2.956". This produced a 1/2" group

At 2.926 I put 4 in a 1/4" group and pulled the last shot high. It was me. I knew it when I broke the shot.

The next group opened up quite a bit and had a very large ES caused by the 3rd round in the string having a considerably lower velocity.

The real surprise was the last group. It was the shortest OAL at 2.856 but the velocity jumped way up.

Every shot in the string was over 2900, when the previous string was at 2650.

I still cant figure out why no change other than a .030 deeper bullet would produce an additional 250 fps.

Clearly the rifle liked the depth of the second string much better.

It really goes to show the dramatic difference seating depth makes with certain bullets.

Tls

[JKSNIPER]

38 Super...first thing is STOP shooting 3 shot groups. You don't want to know what a rifle will do for 3 rounds...you want to know what it will do for EVERY round. The only way to do that is to shoot 10 shot or more groups.

Second...if your rifle is doing weird stuff? Could be you...could be the rifle...could be your reloads. Get it set up and invite a good shooting friend to get behind her and wring her out using FACTORY MATCH AMMO.

If he's getting consistent results you know its not the rifle.

Also if you want the trigger adjusted you can send your 700 back to the factory with a request that they adjust it to eh factory minimum of 4.5 pounds and they will do this. Or you can find a certified Remington armorer who can do it for you..just do NOT do or bring it to "Bubba The Gunsmith" cos if he's not certified it voids Remingtons warranty and they will NOT work on the rifle after its been tinkered with by ink personnel.

Had a 700 that when it sat in the heat stuff expended (Im talking Nevada desert sun heat) and the barrel touched the stock causing flyers. Took it out of the stock and carved on it. Now its fine.

You can get nice chassis systems for it but a mcmillan stock would do just as well and probably be less $.

Try shooting some Black Hills Gold 175gr. Won a match with them once. Expensive ammo but its probably the best factory match ammo out there.

[38superman]

38 Super...first thing is STOP shooting 3 shot groups. You don't want to know what a rifle will do for 3 rounds...you want to know what it will do for EVERY round. The only way to do that is to shoot 10 shot or more groups.

Second...if your rifle is doing weird stuff? Could be you...could be the rifle...could be your reloads. Get it set up and invite a good shooting friend to get behind her and wring her out using FACTORY MATCH AMMO.

If he's getting consistent results you know its not the rifle.

Also if you want the trigger adjusted you can send your 700 back to the factory with a request that they adjust it to eh factory minimum of 4.5 pounds and they will do this. Or you can find a certified Remington armorer who can do it for you..just do NOT do or bring it to "Bubba The Gunsmith" cos if he's not certified it voids Remingtons warranty and they will NOT work on the rifle after its been tinkered with by ink personnel.

Had a 700 that when it sat in the heat stuff expended (Im talking Nevada desert sun heat) and the barrel touched the stock causing flyers. Took it out of the stock and carved on it. Now its fine.

You can get nice chassis systems for it but a mcmillan stock would do just as well and probably be less $.

Try shooting some Black Hills Gold 175gr. Won a match with them once. Expensive ammo but its probably the best factory match ammo out there.

JKSniper,

That all sounds like good advice.

However, I would point out that I only shoot 3 shot groups when I am trying to establish a working max.

After I find my max, I shoot a series of (5) five shot groups to validate the accuracy with each charge.

I think 5 shot groups are reavealing when you look at the aggregate rather than any one group.

The way I do it requires 250 rounds for each powder / bullet combination.

I don't want to burn up the barrel, 6 million dollars in components and 10 years of my life doing load development on a single rifle.

I visited the best stocked ammo dealer in town today but could find very little in the way of premium grade .308

The only thing I could find was Nosler Custom Competition 175's. I might give those a try if I can bring myself to buy 20 rounds for 30$

I really believe that a lot of issues are related to a trigger that is just too heavy.

When I line up the shot and squeeze the trigger the gun requires ever more pressure before it trips the sear.

Sometimes I am forcing the shot because I have to hold the sight picture way too long.

I don't have a trigger gage but I'm guessing its somewhere around 6 - 7 lbs.

I now refer to it as the gorilla trigger.

Fixing this is the first order of business.

Tls

[dauntedfuture]

You also need to take a look at your ES numbers when your testing ammo. 5 shot numbers will tell you something, 10 will tell whats closer to the truth. 50 Fps at 600 Yds is on minute I think. 50 FPS at 1000 is like 2 MOA or so with .308, you can check in a ballistic program. Provided you are weighing brass and powder, a high ES can be an indicator of many things which would require a long discussion. Seating depth effects neck tension as there is more bullet to case contact. In many cases this can produce more consistent results because the case generates more pressure and a more efficient burn prior to letting go of the bullet. This can also have to do with the primers, a hot primer can push the bullet right out of the case if your neck tension is low. Getting ES for a 10 shot group below 25 FPS usually requires lots of hard work and experimentation.

For what its worth: I use 5 shot groups to work up with powder charges and .002 off the lands with -.002 neck tension or so with, trimmed, weight sorted cases and weighed powder charges. I work up in .5g to make sure I can get the velocity I need and check groups and ES while i'm at it. This gives me some good indicators. Provided I get the velocity and groups that I need and ES is not extreme ill work on seating depth and or neck tension the next go around with the designated charge. Once I'm getting 25 FPS ES for 5 shot groups and 1" at 200 yds I stop development and verify with a 10 shot group or two. This all takes about 50 rds or so. In .308 this is not too hard on a barrel, im a little more selective on 6.5x.284. RL 15, N135 and Varget have all worked for me in .308. In 6.5x.284 its H4350 or H4831SC.

For what its worth this is what I used to get my NRA High master long range card and shoot a 990 / 1000 in a LR regional and a few 200-12x at 1000 with a scope and a sling.

[38superman]

You also need to take a look at your ES numbers when your testing ammo. 5 shot numbers will tell you something, 10 will tell whats closer to the truth. 50 Fps at 600 Yds is on minute I think. 50 FPS at 1000 is like 2 MOA or so with .308, you can check in a ballistic program. Provided you are weighing brass and powder, a high ES can be an indicator of many things which would require a long discussion. Seating depth effects neck tension as there is more bullet to case contact. In many cases this can produce more consistent results because the case generates more pressure and a more efficient burn prior to letting go of the bullet. This can also have to do with the primers, a hot primer can push the bullet right out of the case if your neck tension is low. Getting ES for a 10 shot group below 25 FPS usually requires lots of hard work and experimentation.

For what its worth: I use 5 shot groups to work up with powder charges and .002 off the lands with -.002 neck tension or so with, trimmed, weight sorted cases and weighed powder charges. I work up in .5g to make sure I can get the velocity I need and check groups and ES while i'm at it. This gives me some good indicators. Provided I get the velocity and groups that I need and ES is not extreme ill work on seating depth and or neck tension the next go around with the designated charge. Once I'm getting 25 FPS ES for 5 shot groups and 1" at 200 yds I stop development and verify with a 10 shot group or two. This all takes about 50 rds or so. In .308 this is not too hard on a barrel, im a little more selective on 6.5x.284. RL 15, N135 and Varget have all worked for me in .308. In 6.5x.284 its H4350 or H4831SC.

For what its worth this is what I used to get my NRA High master long range card and shoot a 990 / 1000 in a LR regional and a few 200-12x at 1000 with a scope and a sling.

DF

I really don't think what we do is much different. If you look at the image below, it shows how I track and develop my load data.

The only real difference in the method I use and the one you describe is that I don't do my initial test at .002 off the lands.

I do weigh every powder charge but usually don't sort cases. The Nosler brass I use is pretty consistent.

I prefer to do the first series at SAAMI OAL. This is the depth that is used to develop the max loads in the reloading manuals so I try to duplicate it.

On the first series of testing at Magazine length is where the pressures will be the highest.

When the subsequent loads are fired at various depths the lengths get incrementally longer and pressure / velocity drops due to increased area inside the case.

Do you do all your testing at 200 yds?

You make a good point about the neck tension affecting powder burn.

What do you consider minimum neck engagement? I am not comfortable with less than 0.150"

Thanks for the info and taking the time to post.

Edited July 13, 2014 by 38superman

[dauntedfuture]

I will start with .003 neck tension, or loaded round .003, so I guess that's .0015 depending on how you look at it. I also use a lyman M die to slightly open up the edge of the case mouth. I think this smooth's out the transition and allows you to get adjust for more neck tension without a concern for damage to the boat tail. Truth be told, I have not been messing with neck tension all that long. I have been doing everything else for some time now. Last summer I got some Redding bushing dies and started testing with different bushings to see how that effected ES, and to a lesser extent SD. I also started cleaning up the necks on my brass. I was doing all this for my .308 Palma gun which has a generous 7.62 chamber so some of this is likely a mute point. In the limited testing I was able to do before it got cold and me deploying, I noted that turning necks and playing with the tension effected ES/SD, but I was not seeing a real effect on accuracy. This stands to reason as I have a 7.62 chamber. Preliminary testing was all done with surplus 4895 which is on the slow side and I was not getting the velocity I needed.

[JKSNIPER]

If you want to get REALLY crazy you can weigh all casings and throw out those that are outside your parameters, measure concentricity using gauges from sinclair and toss those also that do not conform roll projectiles and toss non concentric ones as well as weigh each one to get exact weights, neck turn, and only neck size.

Or you could figure out the time you spent doing all that and then figure out a $ figure for that time and see if it still saves you $ over what it costs for factory match ammo.

[Shooter115]

If you want to get REALLY crazy you can weigh all casings and throw out those that are outside your parameters, measure concentricity using gauges from sinclair and toss those also that do not conform roll projectiles and toss non concentric ones as well as weigh each one to get exact weights, neck turn, and only neck size.

Or you could figure out the time you spent doing all that and then figure out a $ figure for that time and see if it still saves you $ over what it costs for factory match ammo.

Are you under the impression that any ammo manufacture does this with their "Match" ammo?

[38superman]

I can't imagine any manufacturer's match ammo assembled with anywhere near the precision that is described in JkSnipers post. My handloads often produce better results than comparable match grade factory ammo. That's without the extremes that would include concentricity gages, etc.

[stinsonbeach]

I recognize that a 6 or 6.5 mm might be better suited for Precision Rifle.

That's not really the issue. I am still in learning mode having only shot one such match to date.

At this point it wouldn't matter what blaster I show up with, I will not scare the elite shooters,..... yet.

Last fall I showed up with a .223 and a ballistics calculator for my first match.

I was not well prepared as the .223 had never fired a shot beyond 100 yds and I didn't have enough of my pet load so I had to shoot factory ammo.

I scored about 52% of the winners score. Nothing to write home about but a decent first effort. Was getting solid hits out to about 550.

The issue now is to get the .308 shooting more consistently. It may not match the more exotic calibers but should be a step up from the AR.

My best load to date is 44.5 Varget behind a Nosler 168 Custom Competition bullet.

That load at magazine length is a pretty consistent 3/4 MOA performer but only produces about 2600 fps from my 26" barrel.

I bought some 155 SMK Palmas to try. They have a high B.C. and my hope was that I could find an accurate load that would push the lighter bullet to 2900-3000.:

The problem is that high B.C. comes at a price. At 2.800 OAL, the long slender ogive doesnt touch the lands until it moves .210 thou.

I shouldn't be a pessimist before I send a single one down range but that's just too much freebore. I will be very surprised if it performs as hoped.

The gun desperately needs a better trigger (Timney maybe?) but I don't have the tools or experience to do it myself and I'm not sure who to trust with it.

Tls

Shillen trigger: 2 - 6 oz scarey...

[JKSNIPER]

38Superman,

I re-read my post and I wasn't clear with my point. My fault.

My point was not that a person CAN'T achieve better results with hand loads but that is it worth it?

Are your results really that much better than quality factory match grade ammo that it justifies the investment in time and $ to achieve them?

I say this having won a sniper match using Black Hills Gold 175gr BTHP Match ammo shooting against guys that were using either their own hand loads or factory ammo.

Not patting myself on the back here but many times it's the indian not the arrow.

I've hand loaded my own .308 rounds 168gr and 175gr neck sized, etc.....and theres a LOT about accuracy I don't know....but I do know the former head of the FBI ballistics lab who expressed an opinion years ago ,based on his observations of testing done on thousands of rifles, about how the rifles we try and achieve this one hole group from are just not that accurate.

Theres guys that will give you a "guaranteed group of ___MOA" . My buddy found this to be true.....if you shot enough groups.

His view was "I want to know what the rifle can do EVERYTIME not just one time. Thats one reason we shoot larger numbers of rounds than the traditional 3 shot or 5 shot group.

I say shoot the rifle with QUALITY factory match ammo. A bunch of it. Save the targets and results. All of them. The crappy ones with the good ones.

Then shoot some hand loads under the same conditions. See if theres a huge difference.

Anyone can cherry pick from their target stack and show off and everyone thats ever been a shooter has probably done it. "Hey buddy....Look at this group. Fired that at a gazillion yards in a hurricane, high tide,earthquake, ...."

If you then look at the trash can right nearby I'm betting you'll find a bunch of targets that were "unworthy" of being saved.

JK

[38superman]

38Superman,

I re-read my post and I wasn't clear with my point. My fault.

My point was not that a person CAN'T achieve better results with hand loads but that is it worth it?

Are your results really that much better than quality factory match grade ammo that it justifies the investment in time and $ to achieve them?

I say this having won a sniper match using Black Hills Gold 175gr BTHP Match ammo shooting against guys that were using either their own hand loads or factory ammo.

JK,

Is the effort required to produce reloads of higher quality than commercial match grade ammo worthwhile?

Its a valid question.

For me I have to say that it is.

Shooting sports are a hobby (for me a passion) but reloading is also a hobby all it's own.

I've been doing it for 44 years and it feeds the perfectionist side of my personality.

For a long time my focus was working with hunting rifles and tuning them to try to increase the effective range.

I own a .270 that is a superb deer rifle but is so accurate with certain reloads that it can easily double as a varmint gun.

I have recorded every group this gun has ever fired and the overall aggregate shows it to be a true minute of angle gun.

With a 90 grain Sierra and IMR 4350 I can get 3500 fps from a 22" barrel and it will print 1/2 to 3/4 groups with almost monotonous regularity.

You are correct that when people brag about their results, they tend to present the best of the best. That's human nature.

However, what I'm doing isn't cherry picking, it is documenting every round that goes down the tube.

I am an engineer and my profession is only concerned with results that are repeatable an verifiable. Nothing else is relevant.

My mission now is to wring every last bit of accuracy from this Heavy Barrel .308

Surprisingly, it is only the second non-sporter weight rifle I've ever owned and it sat in my gun safe for more than 10 years before I ever put glass on it.

It seems to have great potential but I haven't found consistency with it.

Perhaps that is the fault of the shooter,... but finding (and correcting) faults in your shooting technique is part of the process too.

Back to your original question.

The journey is as much the fun as the destination. Separating the wheat from the chaff is its own reward.

Just going to the store and buying premium ammo might serve the purpose if shooting a match was the only goal.

Winning a match as you have would be a blast, but I think doing it with ammo I crafted would make it that much sweeter.

Its that feeling of accomplishment that keeps things interesting.

I hope I didn't get too carried away with this post, but your question really made me think about why I do this.

Your opinions are duly noted and your feedback is always appreciated.

Tls

Edited July 27, 2014 by 38superman

[openclassterror]

We have been testing various reloading dies (seating dies specifically) and are seeing some possible contributors there. Off the shelf standard RCBS seating die for .308 was giving erratic results on concentricity. Out of 50 rounds, here are the results-

less than .001 TOTAL indicator runout =5

.000 to .003 runout =32

.003 to .005 runout =9

.005 to .008 runout =4

Forster Benchrest seating die (with floating chamber) gave the following-

less than .001 runout =47

.001 to .003 runout =3

measurement taken .050 ahead of case mouth, after crimping. 168gr hpbt match bullets used in both tests.

Could definitely explain some of the "It was a good group and then.....dang..." experiences with the RCBS alignment issues.

[dauntedfuture]

Thanks for the numbers and a good sample size too. What kind of press was that on? I have been loading my LR stuff on a 550 and never checked those numbers against the same dies on a RCBS.

[rboyes]

Have you been checking the neck's concentricity prior to loading?

I typically see .005 and under with a dillon sizing die with the expander ball, though sometimes it's a little higher. But I'm reloading for a gas gun. Going to try some redding case neck lube to see if it helps with runout caused by the expander ball.

[Adam B]

if you are having run out issues, try this, I have been doing it for years and it works perfectly

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

[38superman]

I decided to take the advice of others and tested some of my more promising loads in 10 shot groups.

This photo was the first of 4 groups with Berger 155s and RE 15 at varying seating depths.

Eight rounds were well under 3/4 inch but two flyers opened it up to 1.040.

Got to find more consistency.

I guess its time to tighten up the reloading process a bit.

I ordered a Redding Type S micro adjustable sizer die and a Hornady concentricity guage.

I had been full length sizing and seating using an RCBS competition die set.

I will be neck sizing cases, sorting brass by weight and checking concentricity in the future.

It's worth noting that the RCBS dies were producing rounds that were (with a few exceptions) generally within .002 in run out.

Don't know what more I could do other than turning the necks.

Weighing cases revealed some interesting information.

After trimming to length, 50 Nosler cases showed a varience of 1.2 grains from high to low.

50 Lapua cases chosen at random from a new lot of brass were trimmed and weighed and resulted in a 2.6 grain varience.

The Lapua brass was on average 7 grains heavier. Necks are quite a bit thicker also.

No surprise about that.

Testing the Bergers is ongoing, and I am now working up some loads with 175 SMKs

Stay tuned for results.

Tls

[Dranoel]

I recognize that a 6 or 6.5 mm might be better suited for Precision Rifle.

That's not really the issue. I am still in learning mode having only shot one such match to date.

At this point it wouldn't matter what blaster I show up with, I will not scare the elite shooters,..... yet.

Last fall I showed up with a .223 and a ballistics calculator for my first match.

I was not well prepared as the .223 had never fired a shot beyond 100 yds and I didn't have enough of my pet load so I had to shoot factory ammo.

I scored about 52% of the winners score. Nothing to write home about but a decent first effort. Was getting solid hits out to about 550.

The issue now is to get the .308 shooting more consistently. It may not match the more exotic calibers but should be a step up from the AR.

My best load to date is 44.5 Varget behind a Nosler 168 Custom Competition bullet.

That load at magazine length is a pretty consistent 3/4 MOA performer but only produces about 2600 fps from my 26" barrel.

I bought some 155 SMK Palmas to try. They have a high B.C. and my hope was that I could find an accurate load that would push the lighter bullet to 2900-3000.

The problem is that high B.C. comes at a price. At 2.800 OAL, the long slender ogive doesnt touch the lands until it moves .210 thou.

I shouldn't be a pessimist before I send a single one down range but that's just too much freebore. I will be very surprised if it performs as hoped.

The gun desperately needs a better trigger (Timney maybe?) but I don't have the tools or experience to do it myself and I'm not sure who to trust with it.

Tls

Definitely get a better trigger. You'll be surprised at the difference. I have Timney triggers in both of my '98 Mausers. Love them.

[Wild Gene]

A friend of mine in the Marines just posted he was having effective hits with their M40A5's out to 1,660 yards the other day on Facebook.

wg

[usmc1974]

A friend of mine in the Marines just posted he was having effective hits with their M40A5's out to 1,660 yards the other day on Facebook.

wg

LOL .. Marines some times are well, FOS ! a 175 grain bullet with a MV of 2560 and a 300 yard zero. at 1600 yards it is about 800 fps and drops 1800+ inches. you would need about 108 MOA come up or about 32 mils either way that is a whloe lot of come up's

Edited September 25, 2014 by usmc1974

[Wild Gene]

I'll tell him you said that, and that you're from the class of '74, see what he says. haha. I bet he killed the paper!

[usmc1974]

we do a little long range shoooting ourselfes I have only got to 800 because I ran out of time. 16"x18" 400 to 1400 only 2 shots at each in 5 minute time limit.

http://www.spearpointranch.com/

[JKSNIPER]

If you can do the bullet drop math then yes you CAN have effective hits on target well beyond what the published effective range for a particular weapon is.

For example I'd never WANT to use a .45 pistol to engage an enemy at 600 yards but CAN you use one thats been properly gunsmithed and tuned to do just that?

Yes. If you doubt it look up Combat NCO in google and watch the videos from the NRA's training center.

Remember "effective hits on target" means something different to USMC, Soldiers, etc...To them if they aim 10' over a targets head to compensate for the drop and strike the intended target in the lower leg? Thats an effective hit. It takes an enemy out of the fight.

To competitive shooters that sort of strike would be a miss or not good enough.

How you judge effectiveness all depends on which range you're playing on that day....the one way or two way range.

[usmc1974]

If you can do the bullet drop math then yes you CAN have effective hits on target well beyond what the published effective range for a particular weapon is.

For example I'd never WANT to use a .45 pistol to engage an enemy at 600 yards but CAN you use one thats been properly gunsmithed and tuned to do just that?

Yes. If you doubt it look up Combat NCO in google and watch the videos from the NRA's training center.

Remember "effective hits on target" means something different to USMC, Soldiers, etc...To them if they aim 10' over a targets head to compensate for the drop and strike the intended target in the lower leg? Thats an effective hit. It takes an enemy out of the fight.

To competitive shooters that sort of strike would be a miss or not good enough.

How you judge effectiveness all depends on which range you're playing on that day....the one way or two way range.

Yes, well, all rightie then, What about them lakers.

[yellowfin]

Just out of curiosity, what does a 6.5x284 do that a 6.5-06 doesn't?