Jollymon32 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Based on the cheating scandal that has erupted, I really don't want a particular RO to run me when I shoot a stage. Do the rules allow for a shooter to ask for a different RO? Other than zeroing a stage, is there any other penalty to the shooter for refusing to run a stage? Other option is to choose to attend a match or not based on the RO's that are officiating. Are RO's announced prior to a match? I don't recall ever seeing a list. Based on my willingness to take a zero on a stage, It is evident that I am a net contributor to the sport (pays match fees, never wins anything) who does not place too much stock on my results. And while the obvious response would be "why then would I care that several seconds are added to my time or not", the answer is that I am very conscientious as to who I am 'contributing' to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Ask for a different RO, I would even call the MD/RM if I had to. I remember from my RO class that a recurring theme was that as an RO you are there to make the shooters experience smooth and pleasant, and personally I would have no problem stepping back if a shooter asked for someone else to run them instead of me. If the RM/MD says no, I'd ask why not, what is the problem with having a "hot spare" RO or even the RM RO you for a stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p7fl Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I hope the problem is not with Our club. If it is please email or PM me. Yes, one of the first things I was taught as an RO in the late 90's was any shooter could ask any time to change ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I don't see anything jn the rules that allows a competitor to request a different Range Officer but neither is there a rule that prevents it. There are always two RO's on each stage, one for the timer and the other to enter scores. As long as there is verification from both RO's on the scores/timer display then there should not be a need for a different RO. Having said that; the professionalism level of our RO's is very high in my opinion and I doubt that any RO would have a problem if a competitor asked for a different official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I see no problem with it other than causing butt hurt. I might be a little miffed as an RO if you walked up and said you did not want me to RO you. Most likely I would have a good idea why it was being asked and would most likely not be too surprised. There are just some people that we don't take to. That is just the way things are. Now, if you walked up and said you want Joe Blow to RO you specifically then I would be inclined to think you may be cheating yourself. All things considered though, out and out cheating is pretty rare. Ultimate gaming, sure, but RO's can usually handle that. On the other side of the coin, and why I believe it is OK to ask for another RO, is that I also believe an RO can excuse himself from running a shooter or particular squad and ask somebody else to run them. As a matter of fact I did just that at Area 5 this weekend. This may seem silly but I had a dream that I DQ'ed a shooter at the match that I know personally. It was questionable and it got ugly. I had no problem the next morning telling my RO team that I did not want to run his squad. Seemed the professional thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 I hope the problem is not with Our club. If it is please email or PM me. Yes, one of the first things I was taught as an RO in the late 90's was any shooter could ask any time to change ROs. No, this is not within our club. But most likely we have been ran by this individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 ....All things considered though, out and out cheating is pretty rare.... Not sure about this anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 4.5.2 The competitor may request that Match Officials take corrective actions to ensure consistency in respect of the range surface, the presentation of targets and/or any other matter. The Range Master will have final authority concerning all such requests. I guess you could use this one if you can articulate to the RM that you do not trust a specific RO, or the RO is inconsistent. I had a competitor request a certain RO not run him because the RO's chit chat and propensity to not use the approved range commands threw him off his game. I asked that RO to refrain from running the timer for the remainder of the match. Have not seen that RO work a match since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 We talking about club matches or level 2 and higher matches? You might be able to do it with RO that stay at a stage, but it get harder with ones that stay with the squad. I once saw an RO give a reshoot to his buddy that thought he had a squib and stopped himself. No sqib. I have seen a guy running uprange with his gun forward and his buddy did not dq him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent1k1 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 4.5.2 The competitor may request that Match Officials take corrective actions to ensure consistency in respect of the range surface, the presentation of targets and/or any other matter. The Range Master will have final authority concerning all such requests. I guess you could use this one if you can articulate to the RM that you do not trust a specific RO, or the RO is inconsistent. I had a competitor request a certain RO not run him because the RO's chit chat and propensity to not use the approved range commands threw him off his game. I asked that RO to refrain from running the timer for the remainder of the match. Have not seen that RO work a match since. 4.5.2 as stated above seems to give the RM the flexibility to deal with the situation. There are RO's I have come across that like to do a lot of chit-chat not only with shooters, but with people behind them and I can see how that may affect a shooter. Virtually every RO that has run me at a major match has been quiet, used the proper range commands and treated me fairly. Some of that may be do to the MD and RM hand-picking their RO staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfchorn Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Based on the cheating scandal that has erupted Perhaps I am out of the loop and something has occurred that I am not aware of, but you chose some strong words to start your OP. I am hoping an isolated incident got blown out of proportion, misunderstandings didn't get resolved, tempers flared, and a someone posted in the heat of the moment. Otherwise, perhaps the NROI would like to know the details of the incident. I agree with Sarge. In my experience, out and out cheating is pretty rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 ....All things considered though, out and out cheating is pretty rare.... Not sure about this anymore. To my knowledge this current issue involves one shooter and an accomplice? There have not been many on this level that I have been aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Based on the cheating scandal that has erupted Perhaps I am out of the loop and something has occurred that I am not aware of, but you chose some strong words to start your OP. I am hoping an isolated incident got blown out of proportion, misunderstandings didn't get resolved, tempers flared, and a someone posted in the heat of the moment. Otherwise, perhaps the NROI would like to know the details of the incident. I agree with Sarge. In my experience, out and out cheating is pretty rare. Check out doodie project forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) Based on the cheating scandal that has erupted Perhaps I am out of the loop and something has occurred that I am not aware of, but you chose some strong words to start your OP. I am hoping an isolated incident got blown out of proportion, misunderstandings didn't get resolved, tempers flared, and a someone posted in the heat of the moment. Otherwise, perhaps the NROI would like to know the details of the incident. I agree with Sarge. In my experience, out and out cheating is pretty rare. I believe that I would not be embellishing the situation by saying that many 'incident reports' have or will be arriving at NROI. What the result of these reports will be, well no one knows, but I have evaluated the situation and pretty much made up my mind that I will not be ran by this individual. And I have nothing to loose as I rarely win anything. It really is just based on principle. Edited June 18, 2014 by Jollymon32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) I saw it happen at the USPSA National Championships in the early '90's. A top competitor was taking forever going through his LAMR routine and the RO tried to nudge him along. Long story short, the RM removed the RO and another finished. There was no malice involved on either side, but the competitor, competing for a national title, was due the courtesy, as any competitor would be, of not having any undue stress. In the RO class I took, many years ago, it was specifically mentioned as being acceptable. Now cherry picking who RO's you is another issue, and I'd not think that would be acceptable. Edited June 18, 2014 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 There are three important issues here. 1. The RO is supposed to be providing good customer service (as long as safety is never compromised). 2. The rules need to be followed. 3. There are personalities. I see them, mostly, in that order of importance as well. If you do not want to run a shooter, or a shooter does not want to be run by you, on both sides, some common courtesy should be extended and it should be handled as nicely as can be done. The shooter should be run in manner, consistent with the rules, that gives them the most consistent and fair chance at performing well. Arguing, yelling and calling names does no-one any good...unless you cross the line and get tossed giving the other guy some sort of ill-gained satisfaction. Like I tell my boys, no one makes you do, say, feel or think anything. It is your choice how you respond to any confrontation. It is human nature to stoop to the lowest common denominator, but as an official, we should not let that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherryriver Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I learned my lesson long ago- I won't RO my significant other. Not because I let stuff go, but because I overcompensate and call too tight.Lots of overlay calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 You also have situations where the RO should step aside. If you are ROing and your wife is in the hunt for a title, I would think stepping aside and letting the other RO run her would be the most proper thing to do. In the past ten years I have only had two issues with ROs, neither related to their integrity nor their conduct towards shooters or myself. One was related to a disagreement between the RO and the RM, the other was just a very friendly RO being overly chatty when we had shooters backing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Filiaga Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I can't recall any instance where I absolutely wanted a different RO....However, there has been times I say to myself "CRAP" not this RO again.....But then I knew what to expect from them and went with the flow, there is always the rulebook to rely on with any discrepencies...... That being said, some folks just irritate each other, I would have no problem giving up the timer if I irritated someone enough to cause them grief or extra stress during a course of fire........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 First, I hope there is some other explanation for the cheating issue I have been reading about. I hate to think someone would do something like that. It would kind of suck some of the fun out of something I love to do. I would understand that you would not want that person to run you. I will say I am glad I learned a good habit from the person that taught me how to RO. When the shooter is done and you give ULSC put the timer over your shoulder so the scorekeeper can see the time. After you give Range is Clear, look at the timer and call the time. Wait for the scorekeeper to call it back before you start scoring targets. There are times when that doesn't work because the scorekeeper is off scoring targets but I still do it for all to be able to see the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I learned my lesson long ago- I won't RO my significant other. Not because I let stuff go, but because I overcompensate and call too tight. Lots of overlay calls. I had this come up this past weekend. My wife hit a no shoot target and the shot knocked over steel. Had it been anyone else I would have made the equipment failure call and reshoot without question. I made the call but also sent for the MD/RM at the same time. I wanted to be sure that he saw what had happened before anything was reset in case anyone complained. Of course she went from several misses and no shoot hits to I think one M. It was enough improvement that she beat me in the final scores and I haven't heard the end of it yet. Before anyone says stage design, she was the only on to do this during the match. The no shoot was put up as a vision barrier and no one noticed the shoot through possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I have on two occasions asked for a different RO and told the RM why. In both cases the ROs were replaced. Don't do it unless you have a legitimate reason for having them replaced. If you do ask for another RO. Both cases were at Level 2 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Filiaga Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 So she hit a vision barrier NS, with no other shoot targets nearby hmmmmm........ we need to have a talk ....... Seems to me you ruled by the book.....and made the right call.....sometimes asking for another RO may not be possible .....OH, so maybe your daughter could RO your wife instead......I'll bet she would make the same call!! Thanks for all your family does for our shooting clubs here in the interior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Filiaga Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 my quote button is not working.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 So she hit a vision barrier NS, with no other shoot targets nearby hmmmmm........ we need to have a talk ....... Seems to me you ruled by the book.....and made the right call.....sometimes asking for another RO may not be possible .....OH, so maybe your daughter could RO your wife instead......I'll bet she would make the same call!! Thanks for all your family does for our shooting clubs here in the interior. I'm sure that if you had been shooting instead if playing up the knee surgery it would have been seen. We can talk about it Friday, I think everyone there learned something from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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