Front Sight Training Institute ( Acedemy)

[Clay1]

I stumbled across this site the other day and watched one of their promotional video clips.

Has anyone here taken the 4 day handgun course? Is it real training or rather a high pressure, fancy Kirby vaccum salesman type of presentation designed to get you to purchase property at their facility? Could make a vacation for the wife and I this summer???

Clay

[rhino]

Clay, I have friends who have been there, both for paid courses and for the free submachinegun class.

Reviews are mixed, and most I know won't go back.

I think you'd be better off going somewhere else. The obvious choice would be Gunsite in Arizona, or Thunder Ranch once they get relocated to Oregon.

There are a lot of excellent schools that operate from fixed locations (I mentioned two above), plus some great instructors who travel and offer training at various places around the world. The former tends to allow for more sophisticated facilities and training tools, but the latter is generally more cost effective for most students.

Where do you live?

[Clay1]

The reason that I ask about the above is that I have seen some pricing for the 4 day classes that they are basically giving these away.

I live in Wisconsin and Firearms Training Associates in LaCrosse, WI has Massad Ayoob's Stress Fire courses. Cost of these instructional classes can cost as much as a full season of ammo for many of us. You have to wonder if these types of classes are worth it or is shooting everything in site and the constant exposure to better shooters the way to go. I know, I know - BOTH.

[EricW]

Ayoob's classes are good just because you get the "Mas Card" where he will come testify in court on your behalf in exchange only for travel and living expenses. I don't have a "Mas Card," but may someday. That's what people are paying for, and the testimony is worth it. I don't think he's lost a case yet.

I don't recall hearing anything negative about Thunder Ranch. I believe they're set for the 2005 season. You have to see their new spread on their website. It's absolutely spectacular.

[rhino]

If price is an issue, some excellent 3-day classes for $400-450 can be had from a variety of excellent instructors who travel.

I can recommend Yavapai Firearms Academy (Louis Awerbuck) without reservation. He's the best!

My friends have good things to say about:

Jeff Gonzaules

John Farnham

Jim Crews

There are many!

There are also a handful of fixed locations schools who teach both defensive/combat shooting as well as action competition shooting. Karl Rehn in Texas, Ron Avery, etc. I've heard very, very good things about Frank Garcia's classes from people who have no interest in competition, which says a lot about how well he can tailor the class to their needs.

[Mistral404]

Check with Matt Burkett's website. Perhaps he is holding a class near where you live.

I took Matt's two day class. I felt it was money well spent. I would recommend his class and would take another if the opportunity arises.

[Clay1]

I found out Matt Burkett has been in our area twice while talking to another competitor tonight. I just started this game and that was before my time. I've shot sporting clays in the past and spent more than my fair share on level III instructors fees. It is really nice for a new shooter like me in this type of shooting to learn the right things first. Not too many bad habits to break this way. Learning the right way should pay dividends down the road. Glad to hear that many of you have had good experiences with your classes/coaching sessions.

[Detlef]

if you're interested in *the game*, the defensive classes/schools are not for you, and a waste of both time and money. Garcia's range and school is an excellent recommendation, Matt Burkett gives acclaimed individual instruction, and I hear Barnhart's school and Jarret's classes are great, too.

If, however, you are seeking defensive-type instruction, I would look at ThunderRanch, Gunsite, Chapman Academy and Front Sight. I went to FS when they were still in California and Chuck Taylor still taught there. Certainly very much worth it at the time (9 y ago), but I would solicit input from more recent graduates before signing up. PR and business aspects play more of a role there than at the other schools I mentioned (but that's not necessarily bad...). But they all teach one method (Weaver stance!), and look down on IPSC shooting...

--D.

[Jim in WA]

I'll second Thunder Ranch. Being a native of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan now living in Washington state it's a long drive but great vacation spot to the new Thunder Ranch location. Consider what you hope to learn from any class, as most mentioned are focused on defensive shooting. If you compete at IPSC you already have most gunhandling skills the classes teach, but the value will be learning defensive methods and tactics. I was hesitant on the cost but found the money easily justified with the quality of training. I attended both 2 day handgun and 2 day tactical rifle mini-courses and the rifle was more interesting, but both were a nice diversion from competition while learning useful self-defense skills.

Be advised Clint does like to give civilian IPSC shooters some good natured chiding, as drawing should be real slow while he's teaching, even if you're centering the target every time.

[Bear23]

I won a certificate for 1200$.

I shot the 4 day defensive handgun course.

I shoulda shot the 4 day rifle or shotgun.

You are forced to shoot pure Weaver all 4 days.

2 things that i improved on while there, improved trigger control and harder focus on the front site.

That's about it. I wouldn't go back. They are now going for the 'high flyers', CEO's, celebrities...

Nice facility, nice staff. Just a little too pricey and not enough for your money.

RM

[smokshwn]

Front site donated certificates for a free two day class to all of the registered shooters at our state shoot this year. I thought that was very generous of them. In taking their course (carbine/rifle) I found it in no way compares to the class I took from Gunsite 223. Even though I know the two classes are not apples and apples, if I had paid full price for the FS training I would not have been happy. It was worth a little more than free, however it is not worth full price when compared to classes I have taken from Gunsite, HK, Trident Concepts and others.

[rhino]

Were the people in the class you got with your certificate all certificate holders, or did some pay? Maybe they watered it down since it was a freebie?

Or, maybe they're just not that good?

[smokshwn]

It was a mix of students, there were only four of us in the class. In my mind there just was no comparison. For instance, the instructors at Gunsite for my 223 class Bill Murphy huge resume, works and trains for surefire, gunsite, head firearms trainer for santa monica pd, 20 yrs Swat etc. Jeff Gonzales, navy seal, BUDS instructor, another been there done that resume. Both of these guys have credentials out the wazoo. We even watched a video of a lethal encounter that Bill was involved in. However the lead inst. at FS was "a longtime firearms trainer" thats it no explanation. I would compare it too taking a class from either me or Matt Burkett. I could repeat everything I have ever read and could talk up a storm but it still would never be the real thing.

Like I said if you pick up a FS cert for cheap ($150-$200) then it isn't a bad weekend of trigger time but it definitely is not in aleague of Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, H&K, etc.

[huntershooter]

>> Even though I know the two classes are not apples and apples, if I had paid full price for the FS training I would not have been happy. It was worth a little more than free, however it is not worth full price when compared to classes I have taken from Gunsite, HK, Trident Concepts and others.

I've shot with Gunsite graduates and taken courses from both Front Sight and Trident Concepts and feel the exact opposite!

I audited a Trident Concepts Combative Carbine 1 course for my unit taught by Gonzales and likely would have asked for a refund if I had paid to attend. The Gunsite grad attended one of our local USPSA matches and performed, uh, less than stellar.

OTOH, my experiences at Front Sight for rifle courses have been good.

I'm not knocking any of these schools. I've taught classes where nothing went right and I felt I came off like a tongue-tied jackass and had students who had to be coddled before they _finally_ got it. Stuff happens.

>> .. Credentials ..

Are you aware of the skill evaluations Front Sight uses? Note that students need to shoot a "Graduate", and sometimes a "Distinguished Graduate" score in order to attend more an advanced course. FS holds Skill Builder courses to further train and retest students before advancing. Candidates at the Instructor Development course are expected to perform at the DG level on demand.

As far as "real deal" experience it depends on which instructor. A number of the FS instructors I've talked with certainly do. OTOH guys like Enos, Leatham and Burkett don't have combat experience so I guess that means we have nothing to learn from them, right?

Fast X,

John

[chrisa006]

I have not attended anything there but from what I hear the classes are ok. That said go to Frank Garcia or one of the other folks mentioned. The other issue I have is Front sight has a connection to The Church of Scientology, and I hate Tom Cruise.

[huntershooter]

>> I have not attended anything there

Well, gee, don't let that stop you from voicing your opinion

>> The other issue I have is Front sight has a connection to The Church of Scientology

Having actually attended several courses at Front Sight the only "connection" I've witnessed are posts on the Internet. If this school is supposedly a front for Scientology then management is doing a horrible job because the only thing I've seen them do is teach shooting and related topics.

If you want improve pure shooting skill, then take a class with a top-level competitive shooter. Having already earned my 'M'-cards in USPSA and IDPA, when I was shopping for a shooting school I was more interested in the defensive/combat aspects, learning things we don't practice at matches. I'm sure I would have been happy going to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite or any of the others but ended up going to Front Sight and feel I made a good choice.

[BBunin]

I took the 4 day Handgun class from FrontSight in Sept of this year.

I cannot say enough good things about it! I haven't been to Gunsite, YET, so I can't compare the two. But it was easily worth the couple of hundred I shelled out for the certificate to take it. While I would have balked at paying the full price, I can't say that it would have been money wasted.

We had a class of about 25, ranging from a SF liberal who'd never even held a gun before to a couple of return students and some LE. I really thought that we'd be seriously held back by the newbie shooters, but they managed to balance pushing us with keeping them at their own level. I have to say, the test at the end is pretty tough, even for a competition shooter. I made Graduate, but didn't come close to Distingushed Gradute.

Our instructors were a retired Navy SEAL, a 20 year retired Sherriff's deputy, and a guy with "Law Enforcement and Military Experience". I had an opportunity to check up on the latter guy with sources I trust at a later date. Apparently, he's a well regarded Merc who doesn't brag about it. So I'd have to say that their qualifications were enough for me to listen to them.

[huntershooter]

>> I stumbled across this site the other day and watched one of their promotional video clips.

I saw a notice that this school is hosting a televised shooting show and that details will be in TV Guide in Jan 2007.

Might be worth checking out, if only to see some realistic, pro-gun shooting action on TV!

[kmca]

Excuse me if this is hijacking the thread but I think you're saying that most of the "fixed site" classes are for defensive type shooting. Are you all saying that there are no "fixed site" schools for USPSA/IPSC type shooting?

[huntershooter]

>> Excuse me if this is hijacking the thread but I think you're saying that most of the "fixed site" classes are for defensive type shooting.

I think most of them are. Probably because most red-blooded, John Wayne-watchin', handgun-ownin' folks want to go to fightin' school 'cause they done already learned how to shoot and don't bother with that fancy pants competition stuff that'll just getcha killed.

So they go to "fightin' school", and end up learning the fundamentals of practical shooting that any half-decent competition shooter practices and knows.

One thing I liked about Front Sight was their attention to fundamentals and even offering "just shooting" courses to focus on them.

>> Are you all saying that there are no "fixed site" schools for USPSA/IPSC type shooting?

I don't know if they're "fixed" but most of the top-flight competition folks offer classes.

[Bruce Warren]

I've been getting lots of emails from Front Sight. Has anyone been there or have any imput. I was thinking about going but I'm more into competetion and this sounds more like Urban warrior training.

If anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Flexmoney
** threads merged **

[The_Vigilante]

US Shooting Academy in Tulsa, OK has class just for competition. Haven't been there tho so can't comment on how good (or bad) it is.

[konkapot]

Another plug for USSA.

A plug for pretty much anywhere other than Front Sight or Gunsight if you really want to be a better shooter.

FY42385

[Duane Thomas]

My impression of Front Sight and Gunsite, from talking to people who've attended both, is that their training got stuck in a time warp sometime around 1976, and they absolutely insist that you do things their way, completely clueless to the fact that the state of the art has moved on.

[Duane Thomas]

Bruce,

BTW, there have been a number of threads over the years on BE.com where folks have asked about Front Sight, along with replies from those who've attended a class there - and never returned, natch. I hate to say, "The search function is your friend," but.... Overwhelmingy, the answer is always the same: "Don't waste your time and money."