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Help me understand this statement about reloading 223


CZspeed

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Can someone help me understand the statement in the picture below about having the neck of a Forster body die honed out to .245? Is this done just so the FL die won't touch the resized neck? Why would someone do this rather than buy a redding body die for $30

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/401556/redding-body-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Or maybe I'm way off so thank you in advance for any help. I've been researching for months while preparing to reload 223 on my xl650 but rifle ammo is so much more complicated than pistol. I get lost in all sorts of technical details while trying to find an answer mor a simple question.

67AB260A-19D1-4F54-B8F5-1205BD6D417A_zps

This is what I'm thinking for dies. I'd like to get

- Lee collet neck sizing die

- Redding or Forster body die

- Redding or Forster competition or standard seating die

- Separate taper crimp die?

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You could do pretty much the same thing with a separate body die. Doing it with a honed FL die means that you have more complete contact with the brass at the neck/shoulder junction. Key take aways from that technique AND the body die method is to properly bump the shoulder and not use an expander ball. For my AR loads in 3 gun, I don't notice any advantage to it so I don't use it - for my F T/R loadings I do, although it is minimal compared to my ability or lack of ability to read wind changes at 600 yards and out...

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Thanks. Do you know if the Reding body die is just a regular full length die or is the neck honed out some? It seems like if honing out the neck was worth doing, then some mfg's would be selling it.

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6mm BR dot com has some good information on reloading. I highly recommend getting started there.

Just keep in mind that with rifle, you can't put a whole lot of work into your reloads with very very minimal improvements. If your not shooting bench rest competition, there is a whole lot your really don't need to do. In fact, for 223rem I use just a set of Lee Deluxe dies. Nothing special. When I went to IMR 8208 XBR powder, I stopped trickle charging because it metered so well. Dude, I literally use once fired brass. The only prepping I do is cleaning, lubing, and trimming. I seat to 2.250" and still get sub-MOA. I found all the additional, separating cases by weight, trimming flash holes and uniforming primer pockets, trickle charging, and blah blah blah did show improvements in groups, but not enough for the time I put into it.

You kinda need to decide what acceptable accuracy is going to be for you, for the purpose of your shooting. Otherwise your going to spend like way more time reloading and obsessing over stuff, than actually putting those rounds down range. My advice, just get a set of full length size dies, and don't worry about all the extra stuff. RCBS, Redding, Hornady, Lee, it doesn't matter. Once you start getting some rounds down range, see if your left wanting and go from there.

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6mm BR dot com has some good information on reloading. I highly recommend getting started there.

Just keep in mind that with rifle, you can't put a whole lot of work into your reloads with very very minimal improvements. If your not shooting bench rest competition, there is a whole lot your really don't need to do. In fact, for 223rem I use just a set of Lee Deluxe dies. Nothing special. When I went to IMR 8208 XBR powder, I stopped trickle charging because it metered so well. Dude, I literally use once fired brass. The only prepping I do is cleaning, lubing, and trimming. I seat to 2.250" and still get sub-MOA. I found all the additional, separating cases by weight, trimming flash holes and uniforming primer pockets, trickle charging, and blah blah blah did show improvements in groups, but not enough for the time I put into it.

You kinda need to decide what acceptable accuracy is going to be for you, for the purpose of your shooting. Otherwise your going to spend like way more time reloading and obsessing over stuff, than actually putting those rounds down range. My advice, just get a set of full length size dies, and don't worry about all the extra stuff. RCBS, Redding, Hornady, Lee, it doesn't matter. Once you start getting some rounds down range, see if your left wanting and go from there.

This may be exactly what I need to hear. I'm a buy once, cry once kind of guy and sometimes talk myself into buying more than I need. I can afford my own trial and error so I get bogged down reading about things like the crimp/no crimp debate, or crimp during or after seating. The standard redding die set is only $30(or $40 set with FL die) but crimps while seating but the Forster standard die doesn't crimp and costs $52.

Also I'm not also certain of each writer's goal for shooting. Here's what I'm working with and what I'd like to do with it:

1:8 18" 223 wylde rifle length with adjustable gas, and a lightweight BCG. Hornady 55gr SP closed base with Ramshot Tac, mixed brass. 1-6x glass. The only benchcrest competing that I'll be doing is with friends but I wouldn't mind showing out a little because no one has a precision 223. Shooting slower can be fun with friends and saves money. I like to go fast too... I might shoot a few 3gun matches this year but next year I'm hoping to compete a full season. Our local 3gun match usually has a 500yd target if that matters.

My main concern is regretting a decision that costs me money. Financial stability is getting closer but right now, not so much.

Lee what's your 223 reloading process and with which dies?

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I started loading .223 for CMP Service Rifle competition where accuracy is fairly important. I started with a set of redding dies which worked just fine. I added a Lee collet factory crimp die to better control neck tension at the crimp. A set of Lee dies will do you just fine; that's what I would have bought had I known better at the time. We don't need benchrest accuracy.

I'm not Lee, but here's what I do.

Clean brass

Resize and trim to length. Lots of case lube is helpful here. I like OneShot, and I put a little imperial sizing wax in the neck of every 10th case or so to keep the expander ball sliding smoothly inside the neck)

Set up Dillon 550 for .223

Seat Primer

Drop Powder (Varget, which feels like you're chopping thru a forest but is consistent to +/- .2 grains and that's good enough for sub MOA accuracy out to 600 yds)

Seat bullet

Crimp with factory crimp collet die

I have toyed with the idea of adding a collet die to station one to ensure consistent neck tension but havent seen the need yet. If I have a problem with neck tension, I will certainly do that.

Hope this helps

Edited by practical_man
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I think the initial "recipe" is meant for a bolt gun. Honing out the neck of the die is similar to using a bushing die. With a bushing die you can change the amount of sizing of the external part of the neck to adjust neck tension on your bullets. The .245 number would "roughly" lead to .001-.002 of neck tension, which is desirable for a bolt gun, but may lead to bullet setback in an autoloader. This recipe would work best for fire formed brass of a single headstamp.

As far as your setup, sound OK except for the bushing die and the collet neck sizing die. If you run one headstamp, or brass with the same neck wall thickness at a time, the bushing die may be fine. Also some bushing dies do not size the whole length of the neck. I have not had much luck using the collet neck sizing die in a progressive press and the mandrel is designed to give proper neck tension for bolt guns, not autoloaders. You can order smaller mandrels which would work for autoloaders for like $5. Also, the bushing die and the collet die, kind of do the same thing (neck tension) in different ways. All of this is probably overkill in a semiauto.

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Thanks for sharing practical.

I think the initial "recipe" is meant for a bolt gun. Honing out the neck of the die is similar to using a bushing die. With a bushing die you can change the amount of sizing of the external part of the neck to adjust neck tension on your bullets. The .245 number would "roughly" lead to .001-.002 of neck tension, which is desirable for a bolt gun, but may lead to bullet setback in an autoloader. This recipe would work best for fire formed brass of a single headstamp.

As far as your setup, sound OK except for the bushing die and the collet neck sizing die. If you run one headstamp, or brass with the same neck wall thickness at a time, the bushing die may be fine. Also some bushing dies do not size the whole length of the neck. I have not had much luck using the collet neck sizing die in a progressive press and the mandrel is designed to give proper neck tension for bolt guns, not autoloaders. You can order smaller mandrels which would work for autoloaders for like $5. Also, the bushing die and the collet die, kind of do the same thing (neck tension) in different ways. All of this is probably overkill in a semiauto.

To clarify I' m not considering getting the bushing die; maybe a micro seater. But you have sent me in the right direction so I'll research collet & semiauto to make a decision to add it later.

I was able to find a redding deluxe 3 die set for a great price on another forum last night. It's a FL sizer, neck sizer, and a seater. Does this mean I can size the neck in the FL sizer or do it in the neck sizer separately? Or sell the neck sizer?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/307180/redding-deluxe-3-die-set-223-remington

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CZspeed,

For semi auto, I have had good luck with both Forster and Dillon full length sizers (unmodified and with a ball/decap pin), and both Redding and Forster micrometer seating dies if you are going to use more than one bullet. This setup gives me reliable neck tension in mixed brass. I use a Lee Factory Crimp die to take the bell out (I load on a 1050). There is a neat tool http://ballistictools.com/store/exclusive/case-mouth-gage-224-308 that lets you gauge your neck size so that you know what neck tension you are getting. For three gun, I just use the same headstamp brass to get consistent results. I mostly leave bushing dies and neck size dies to my 308 bolt gun. I do think that the Lee Collet neck sizing die makes a difference in my bolt gun, and for the <$25 that it costs, it is money well spent. I am experimenting with using it for making ammo for sniper comps where I use my semi auto, but I am using a mandrel that is .004 smaller than the standard mandrel and I am using a single stage press.

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6mm BR dot com has some good information on reloading. I highly recommend getting started there.

Just keep in mind that with rifle, you can't put a whole lot of work into your reloads with very very minimal improvements. If your not shooting bench rest competition, there is a whole lot your really don't need to do. In fact, for 223rem I use just a set of Lee Deluxe dies. Nothing special. When I went to IMR 8208 XBR powder, I stopped trickle charging because it metered so well. Dude, I literally use once fired brass. The only prepping I do is cleaning, lubing, and trimming. I seat to 2.250" and still get sub-MOA. I found all the additional, separating cases by weight, trimming flash holes and uniforming primer pockets, trickle charging, and blah blah blah did show improvements in groups, but not enough for the time I put into it.

You kinda need to decide what acceptable accuracy is going to be for you, for the purpose of your shooting. Otherwise your going to spend like way more time reloading and obsessing over stuff, than actually putting those rounds down range. My advice, just get a set of full length size dies, and don't worry about all the extra stuff. RCBS, Redding, Hornady, Lee, it doesn't matter. Once you start getting some rounds down range, see if your left wanting and go from there.

This may be exactly what I need to hear. I'm a buy once, cry once kind of guy and sometimes talk myself into buying more than I need. I can afford my own trial and error so I get bogged down reading about things like the crimp/no crimp debate, or crimp during or after seating. The standard redding die set is only $30(or $40 set with FL die) but crimps while seating but the Forster standard die doesn't crimp and costs $52.

Also I'm not also certain of each writer's goal for shooting. Here's what I'm working with and what I'd like to do with it:

1:8 18" 223 wylde rifle length with adjustable gas, and a lightweight BCG. Hornady 55gr SP closed base with Ramshot Tac, mixed brass. 1-6x glass. The only benchcrest competing that I'll be doing is with friends but I wouldn't mind showing out a little because no one has a precision 223. Shooting slower can be fun with friends and saves money. I like to go fast too... I might shoot a few 3gun matches this year but next year I'm hoping to compete a full season. Our local 3gun match usually has a 500yd target if that matters.

My main concern is regretting a decision that costs me money. Financial stability is getting closer but right now, not so much.

Lee what's your 223 reloading process and with which dies?

Process:

1) Clean brass in hornady ultrasonic cleaner with one shot brass solution mixed 30:1 ratio as per instructions on bottle. I run it an hour with the temp all the way up.

2) Using my wife's spaghetti strainer and a pan, I wash off the solution very well. Fill the pan with water and move the brass around with my hand, then dump it in the strainer. Rinse, repeat until I'm not seeing soapy bubbles anymore.

3) I dump the brass on a towel that I fold in half containing the brass, pinch an end in each hand and lift one side higher than the other, back and forth, letting the brass go left to right. It kinda helps it dry faster.

4) Brass sits in an open top container overnight, and is dry in the morning.

5) Spray the brass with dillon case lube, and mix it around real good with my hands. About 3 good sprays is enough.

6) Size and decap using the Lee full length size die.

7) Trim using a Little Crow Gunworks Case trimmer (well worth the money, saves boatloads of time) using my cheap plug in power trill clamped down in a vise with a zip tie around the trigger at just the right speed.

8) Throw the brass in my dillon tumbler with just corncob media overnight. Makes it super polished and shiny and gets all the case lube off. (I used to put it thru the ultrasonic cleaner with the one shot gun parts cleaner before this step just to get the lube off, but got tired of waiting another day for it to dry)

9) Using the Lee Collet neck die in conjunction with the primer tool on my press, I put a piece of brass in, push up into the neck die as it grabs the primer, and back down as it seats the primer. Now the case is primed, and I really don't know if the collet neck die makes a difference, but the case had to go up to get the primer anyway, so why not.

10) Powder dump with a Lee perfect powder measure (The XBR 8208 powder is really consistent enough I don't trickle charge it), then seat the bullet to 2.250" with the Lee seating die (and its not always exactly consistent either, but average at 2.250)... no crimp... done...

I started using 53gr SMK Flat Base Bullets with XBR 8208, with very very good results. Last local 3-gun, I was one for one on hits on the rifle plates out to 300. Doped in a little high at 200, aim low at 100. They hit. Low recoil. Dead nuts accurate. No feed issues, no cycle issues. Runs good in everything from my Noveske Skinny Moe 14.5" to my DPMS TPR 20"...

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