When to make up shots

[ES13Raven]

I have shot 4 USPSA matches now, and I'm still trying to fully understand the scoring, hit factor, penalties, high hit factor stage etc. IDPA scoring is much easier to understand.

In two of my USPSA matches - I beat another shooter in my division, but he beat me in the overall scores. I still don't understand that.

Shooting Production with Minor scoring: When do you make up a shot? When do you not?

Obviously you want to shoot only Alphas as fast as you can, but that doesn't always happen.

I know that if you miss or hit a no-shoot, you need to make up that shot because of the miss penalty and shoot-throughs do not count (unlike IDPA).

If you shoot 2 Charlies, it it worth taking an extra shot or two for Alphas?

[MWP]

Beating a shooter in your division and losing to him overall means that the way the scores were totaled for everyone, the points spread was different. Practiscore basically scores 2 matches for everyone, their division, and the overall. Of you're swapping places it most likely means you were both extremely close anyways.

I don't believe it's worth taking any extra shots, unless you felt that you had a miss completely. You'll have to do the math, and it's very case/stage dependant where a shot for 2 or even 4 points are worth it.

When the best shooters in this game make up a shot, it's usually not because they shot the target, then checked the target to notice bad hits. It's because they felt that when the shot broke the sights weren't where they should have been. Some can do it with the same split as if they were double tapping a target. Checking then establishing a new sight picture is at a very different speed.

Edited May 28, 2014 by MWP

[pjb45]

In Production, calling your shot is very important (as with the other divisions).

I have seen many GMs fire a third shot because they had one that was not what they wanted. This could be it was a D instead of a C or C instead of an A.

They know immediately, where there front sight was pointed at the time the shot broke. Their decision to break another shot is immediate. As the sight settles they are ready to break the shot again.

IMO, the key is accuracy.

It has been said many times, you need to be shooting 90% of the available points. If you're not doing that then you are training yourself to miss/shoot poorly--what Seeklander calls training scars. Training scars have to be replace with proper training technique. It is easier in the long run to make yourself shoot 90% of the available rather than blaze away. Training scars come back to haunt you later in your development.

[Trent1k1]

These guys are on point. You can NOT be looking at the holes in the target to see what your hits are while on the clock.

The only possible exception is at the end of the stage. I don't even want to admit how many times I have finished a stage with a target 10 feet in front of me with a Mike and I had already unloaded my gun and looked up.

If I "know" I have a Mike, I make it up.

If i'm not sure where the sites were on the target, I may might it up.

If I see the target move, it probably means I hit one of the target sticks which guarantees a D hit, I make it up.

There just isn't enough time to look at your hits in the paper though.

[Graham Smith]

I have shot 4 USPSA matches now, and I'm still trying to fully understand the scoring, hit factor, penalties, high hit factor stage etc.

It's basically just points per second. Add up your points, subtract your penalties, and divide by time. Something I find useful is to play with scores in a spreadsheet. You can see the effect of A vs C vs Miss, penalties, lost time etc. You can play what if with the scores and see what the effect is of taking an extra shot (time lost vs point gain) is. And very importantly you can see why a short course and a long course may require a very different approach.

[LilBunniFuFu]

Pretty much what everyone is saying, it takes too much time to check every target as you are shooting. Learning to call your shots is somewhat hard to do at speed but it is a great skill to have.

In USPSA scoring is based off of Hit Factor which is points over time. Then you use stage HF for figuring stage points. Add all of your stage points up and see how that compares to the top score and you get your match %.

example 3 stage match.

stage 1 120 points, high HF 5.0, your HF 4.0, 80% of top, your stage points 96

Stage 2 60 points, high HF 8.0, your HF 4.0, 50% of top, your stage points 30

Stage 3 100 points, high HF 4.0, your HF 3.0, 75% of top, your stage points 75

Your match points are 201. If one guy won all the stages then he has 280 match points. you shot a 71.78% in your division.

Now for overall you do that same but the open guys usually skew the HF and that where you can get the swapping of placement in your division.

[Blueridge]

Understand that my viewpoint is from shooting revolver division. That being said I generally don't make up shots unless I know that I can do so without adding another reload during the stage. By habit about 75% of the time I don't even look at the targets after I finish a stage, and when I do mostly I am interested in the turners/swingers/clamshell targets. I listen at the scoring that the RO calls out as I gather my brass and speedloaders from the ground. If I hear the majority of my shots being A's, then I know that the shots are breaking as I maintain my sight alignment and sight picture that I want to have.

[kneelingatlas]

I almost never make up shots, but then again I usually score more than 90% of the available points.

Some guys prefer to hose away and worry about points later (and it may very well be the optimal strategy for them) but I much prefer shooting a pace at which I can score 90%+.

Slow times can usually be accounted for in movement from one array to another, botched stage plans and looking for targets, THAT is where you can realize some speed!

[Nimitz]

USPSA is points/sec so if it takes you 2 secs to shoot 2 Cs that's a HF of 3. How long will it take you to take 2 make up shots and score 2 As (4 additional points)? If you take longer than 1.25 secs for those make up shots you'd have been better off accepting the 2 Cs and moving on:

2 Cs in 2 secs = HF of 3 (6 pts/2 sec)

2 Cs in 2 secs + 2 make up Alphas in 1.25 secs = HF of 3.07 (10 pts/3.25 secs)

So you can see that as long as you can guarantee 2 Alpha makeup shots in 1.25 secs or less than should should do it. However, if it takes you 2 secs to get 2 Cs, how realistic is it to get 2 Alphas in only 1.25 secs of make-up shots?

The point of this little example is to show you that unless you know your splits for guaranteed Alphas, making up Cs in minor is probably not worth it. However, Ds & Ms you always make up ....

[buckaroo45]

Pardon for a bit off topic but I never figgered out how to do a make up shot with my revolvers tho I've screwed up many stages thinking I could. Once that thought sunk in it's never been a consideration. Shoot the stage as planned and live with the result. Just part of the challenge of shooting a revolver and one of the reasons I enjoy them. As always, your results may vary.

[kevin c]

Technically, it is worth making up any shot if the HF of the make up (the points you gained in the time you took to shoot them) is better than the overall HF you anticipate making on the stage without the makeup. Another way to look at it is that the make up is not worth it if it takes too much time to gain back the points lost.

Practically, in minor scoring in Production, it is usually worthwhile to make up a D or miss, and not worth it to make up a C unless it was thrown on a close in target where you can break the make up shot instantly with a high probability of an A, and this on a low HF stage where loss of points may mean more.

The above also assumes you make better points with the make up shot. There's a big difference between putting an extra shot on a 30 yd target with hardcover where it just costs you a bit more time, but could give you 15 more points, vs the same distance target with NS covering the same area, that might gain you 15, but could cost you another 10 if you're off a bit.

[ES13Raven]

Practically, in minor scoring in Production, it is usually worthwhile to make up a D or miss, and not worth it to make up a C unless it was thrown on a close in target where you can break the make up shot instantly with a high probability of an A, and this on a low HF stage where loss of points may mean more.

Thanks. Great explanations guys.