MGM spinner targets, calibration?

[Lange22250]

As far as calibrating it, no idea.

As a target im not a huge fan. Many people in this thread have stated that they use prarie storm or similar on it. Thats nice and easy, and I do as well. The problem is that people that dont know the "tricks" get additional time. You could say its because they arnt prepared, but thats BS. Being not prepared is having adequate equipment and failing due to lack of practice, not because you didnt buy the latest gimmick shells.

My local club has changed the rules, and the stage description always states that you cannot use anything larger than #7.5 2 3/4 shells. I dont mind it as much now, since its not free time for me anymore over shooters without 3^ shot shells.

I would have to disagree on your definition of prepared.

I see prepared as a continuum. At the low end is the guy who is shoveling reloads in his pockets and shooting a rifle with a bad zero and having a good time finishing last and at the high end are the people who know how many 7 1/2's it takes to knock over a full size popper at 30yrds and which choke he needs to use to make it happen.

With the amount of equipment variation available even within divisions, the person who takes the time to research everything, experiment and be an early adopter on top of practicing will always have an edge. And this is on top of actual match experience and any other classes they may have taken.

Unless you want to have a severely restricted equipment division it will always be that way.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Lange22250

[Therealkoop]

As far as calibrating it, no idea.

As a target im not a huge fan. Many people in this thread have stated that they use prarie storm or similar on it. Thats nice and easy, and I do as well. The problem is that people that dont know the "tricks" get additional time. You could say its because they arnt prepared, but thats BS. Being not prepared is having adequate equipment and failing due to lack of practice, not because you didnt buy the latest gimmick shells.

My local club has changed the rules, and the stage description always states that you cannot use anything larger than #7.5 2 3/4 shells. I dont mind it as much now, since its not free time for me anymore over shooters without 3^ shot shells.

Unless you want to have a severely restricted equipment division it will always be that way.

I can see what you are saying. I would like to think most people would rather the winners be dictated by who is the most skilled, rather than equipment/research based. But as you say, there are many things that do not relate to skill that are important, too many to ever make the game based completely on skill. Ive spent plenty of hours playing with chokes and patterning my shotgun alone for the slight edge it might grant me.

[El Guapo]

Let me reiterate, spinners suck.

[openclassterror]

As far as calibrating it, no idea.

As a target im not a huge fan. Many people in this thread have stated that they use prarie storm or similar on it. Thats nice and easy, and I do as well. The problem is that people that dont know the "tricks" get additional time. You could say its because they arnt prepared, but thats BS. Being not prepared is having adequate equipment and failing due to lack of practice, not because you didnt buy the latest gimmick shells.

My local club has changed the rules, and the stage description always states that you cannot use anything larger than #7.5 2 3/4 shells. I dont mind it as much now, since its not free time for me anymore over shooters without 3^ shot shells.

Unless you want to have a severely restricted equipment division it will always be that way.

I can see what you are saying. I would like to think most people would rather the winners be dictated by who is the most skilled, rather than equipment/research based. But as you say, there are many things that do not relate to skill that are important, too many to ever make the game based completely on skill. Ive spent plenty of hours playing with chokes and patterning my shotgun alone for the slight edge it might grant me.

I should think the definition of "skill" would include picking the right equipment/ doing the right research. Part of "skill" is KNOWING that you will need an improved-mod choke to get that spinner, and letting the most difficult target in the stage determine your selection. Having the knowledge set to make the right choice is part of being skilled.

I build very high-end bolt guns for the long-range hunting crowd. I see a huge division between the guys who think they are a "natural crack shot" and the guys who not only STUDY ballistics tables, but shoot over chronos and plot actual drop on targets to correct their B.C. numbers. The second group consistently bring me photos of game they take at extreme distances. The first group bring me their rifles and want me to fix it because they missed again.

To a lesser extent than spinners, Texas Stars require an understanding of basic physics, and a little timing and ability to hit moving targets. When noobs get their butt handed to them by a star, it doesn't matter if they are a "natural". They need to put in some effort to understand how it works/ reacts and learn the SKILL to clean it. When I started shooting 3gun, NONE of the local matches had stars. First I saw of it was the "double death star" (with hostage paddles) at NWMGC. It spanked me BAD. Instead of crying and quitting, I thought "well, if I am gonna play this game, I better figure out how to beat that thing". To me, the spinner is no different. Scores will always show who puts in the research and practice time, and who is casual/ new. Best thing we can do for our sport is this- If you see somebody struggling with the spinner, take a few minutes to give them some pointers! Get their email and send them a few youtube vids. HELP THEM MASTER IT. Then they will be hooked. Instead of dumbing down the targets, let us mentor the guys who are coming up.

[bigbrowndog]

co-exprs I'm not real good at subtle hints so if I don't want a target at a match, I'll tell you straight up. While I don't like the target (spinner) for reasons previously stated, I don't have an issue shooting them and dealing with problem, provided the proper steps are taken to ensure reliability. I would categorize PPSG and HPSC and a lot of the other PSG matches as regional matches and not true major's, as such a bit of leeway in stage design and target useage is given, because lets face it we're trying to make this stuff FUN first, and truly competitive second. When a match reaches what I consider true MAJOR status, it has proven the test of time, and shooter scrutiny and so it owes it to the shooter to eliminate as much cloudy gray shady area as possible. So that scores can be based on pure skill, and to a lesser extent on luck of the draw, direction of the wind, time of the day, type stuff.

Some MAJORS still try and use carnival type stuff for stages and sometimes it works and sometimes it bites them in the arse, or the stage gets gamed so bad they wind up throwing it out for various reasons.

The target itself is a great training aid, but IMHO it does not belong in a quality, fair, competitive shooting environment. The way its being used most of the time its just too easy for it to be inconsistent. Which is why I was trying to see if there is some way to make it easily consistent or calibrateable (not sure thats a word) for match use.

One of the definitions of SKILL, is that its something that requires experience and expertise. They put a monkey and a dog in space it doesn't mean that from that experience, they're now Astronauts!!!

Trapr

Edited May 30, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[7.62mm]

Calibration Idea

Could a hook be welded onto the top plate on the back side, an appropriate weight is attached to the hook, just enough, that when released would rotate the target enough for one 360 degree revolution (at 180 degrees, the weight would fall free). This way, it takes all account of different shot sizes, off centre hits etc.. If at any time a competitor asks for a calibration, it does not rotate 360 degrees, they are given a reshoot, or the stage is thrown.....these targets would slowly be phased out, as would be my preference...lol!

Just a thought!

[P.E. Kelley]

co-exprs I'm not real good at subtle hints so if I don't want a target at a match, I'll tell you straight up. While I don't like the target (spinner) for reasons previously stated, I don't have an issue shooting them and dealing with problem, provided the proper steps are taken to ensure reliability. I would categorize PPSG and HPSC and a lot of the other PSG matches as regional matches and not true major's, as such a bit of leeway in stage design and target useage is given, because lets face it we're trying to make this stuff FUN first, and truly competitive second. When a match reaches what I consider true MAJOR status, it has proven the test of time, and shooter scrutiny and so it owes it to the shooter to eliminate as much cloudy gray shady area as possible. So that scores can be based on pure skill, and to a lesser extent on luck of the draw, direction of the wind, time of the day, type stuff.

Some MAJORS still try and use carnival type stuff for stages and sometimes it works and sometimes it bites them in the arse, or the stage gets gamed so bad they wind up throwing it out for various reasons.

The target itself is a great training aid, but IMHO it does not belong in a quality, fair, competitive shooting environment. The way its being used most of the time its just too easy for it to be inconsistent. Which is why I was trying to see if there is some way to make it easily consistent or calibrateable (not sure thats a word) for match use.

One of the definitions of SKILL, is that its something that requires experience and expertise. They put a monkey and a dog in space it doesn't mean that from that experience, they're now Astronauts!!!

Trapr

Damn dude...please put on more matches! You have my feeling down exactly!@

[JoeBoboutfitters]

Spinners are about as easy to calibrate as a Polish Plate Rack or Texas Stars. IMO, if they can be turned with 2 normal shotgun loads and a decent shooter then they're fine. I've never shot them with a rifle or pistol, and I'm sure that would be much more difficult.

With a SuperNova I typically can turn a Spinner over in 2-3 shots with normal loads or 1-2 with hot Prairie Storms loads and the like.

At the Pikes Peak challenge I ended up hosing myself accidentally and ended up with only Low Recoil Low Noise shells (980FPS) for a spinner on Stage 3. I got the spinner over with 4 powder puff loads, which isn't all that bad.

At the Nordic Tactical Shotgun Championship in 2013 they had a polish plate rack and 2 spinners on the same stage. All 3 targets are hard to predict and aren't really caliperable (Trapr word).

As long as the variables are kept as similar as possible throughout the match then I think they're a good target. They're not very forgiving with accuracy or timing.

[Alaskapopo]

Let me reiterate, spinners suck.

Spinners Rock!

Pat

[toothandnail]

I was looking at our today, SIMPLE to calibrate

1:Hold arm parallel, determine the minimum amount of weight (placed on the target) required to make it spin when released.

2:Decide how many rounds/minimum load, it should be spun with,

3:Set at the distance it takes those rounds to spin it

Any complaints about cal.

1: put the weight on the target

2: release

3: if it spins, it's the shooter/ammo, no different than a popper, actually less room for cal. error

BTW : took me 2 tries to get the min. weight to spin it.

Since this target is as much about timing, as accuracy, seems an easy way to prove it's reliable.

[landshark45]

I like spinners. It seems like each shooter calibrates the spinner for themselves. Some shooters will calibrate in less rounds than others.

The spinner is a true test of skill in shot placement, timing, and load/choke selection.

I do agree with the critics, this target is nearly impossible to calibrate consistently. Because of each shooters skill and CHOICES.

[thermobollocks]

Calibration is about making sure the inherent properties of the spinner (not the shooter) have not changed enough to make it inconsistent. I like the idea of a check weight -- turn it flat, put one weight on it, and see if the spinner holds it up. Add an additional weight and see if the spinner rotates.

That seems like it would sufficiently show whether or not it was getting stiffer or looser from shooter to shooter.

[EkuJustice]

I like them as they do require skill to turn them. They require proper choke, timing, and knowing how to center your pattern and to a lesser extent load(not counting for the cannon loads) to spin one. The ones who I generally see struggling with it are those who have chosen poorly on choke selection and are trying to attack it with the wide open choke like they want to use for clays and even close poppers and just wanna throw lead at it and hope to get a hit instead of shooting it like they mean it and use a tigher choke and center that pattern on the target and then time the next shot. Heck I would love to see a stage with nothing but clays and big easy poppers and then 1 spinner with a HUGE penalty for not spinning it and see how many hosers get bit hard by trying to choke for the clays and not the spinner. 3 gun is all about knowing when to slow down and go steady and when to get on the gas and go.

[bigbrowndog]

I'm looking at using a trigger pull gauge to determine the effort to get the arm to start rotating, and bring it to horizontal, simple effect and repeatable.

trapr

[MarkCO]

I have a force guage that I used to pull the bottom target up to horizontal from the back, and then the front. After being shot 100 times, and even after I lowered one side to put a 15 degree angle on the crossbar, it was within a few percent...well within the margin of error of the test method.

[JoeBoboutfitters]

Doubletap

Edited June 11, 2014 by JoeBoboutfitters

[JoeBoboutfitters]

I have a force guage that I used to pull the bottom target up to horizontal from the back, and then the front. After being shot 100 times, and even after I lowered one side to put a 15 degree angle on the crossbar, it was within a few percent...well within the margin of error of the test method.

Thats a pretty accurate method to test em.

[mulrick]

At my club, guys complained about the spinners at our monthly action pistol matches... Now again this is pistol only, outlaw club match twice a month. The argument was that we attract new shooters with this match, and the 3 spinners we used ( 6 stages) were causing issues for the new guys. So we started painting them white and treating them like the other static steel target... 2 hits on top and 2 on the bottom to neutralize, bonus to spin it. This actually added a new element to the "gamming" of the stages and made for some close competition in the upper ranks and let the new shooters not feel discouraged to at least try to flip it but move on if they can't.

In majors I'm torn... For the reasons stated earlier, I like spinners because they provide a challenging target that as stated before, requires careful stage management and planning which to me is a big part of what separates the top guys. It also rewards PF... But on the other side I know how frustrating it is to have one of these things ruin a stage. Consistency is what we want, and I think the weight idea is a good start. Thing is, for major matches, there are guys who's sole job is to reset targets... is it too much to ask the spinner be checked, lubed, and tightened between shooters (even more so if it is a buck or slug spinner?)

Edited June 11, 2014 by mulrick

[Alaskapopo]

At my club, guys complained about the spinners at our monthly action pistol matches... Now again this is pistol only, outlaw club match twice a month. The argument was that we attract new shooters with this match, and the 3 spinners we used ( 6 stages) were causing issues for the new guys. So we started painting them white and treating them like the other static steel target... 2 hits on top and 2 on the bottom to neutralize, bonus to spin it. This actually added a new element to the "gamming" of the stages and made for some close competition in the upper ranks and let the new shooters not feel discouraged to at least try to flip it but move on if they can't.

In majors I'm torn... For the reasons stated earlier, I like spinners because they provide a challenging target that as stated before, requires careful stage management and planning which to me is a big part of what separates the top guys. But on the other side I know how frustrating it is to have one of these things ruin a stage. Consistency is what we want, and I think the weight idea is a good start. Thing is, for major matches, there are guys who's sole job is to reset targets... is it too much to ask the spinner be checked, lubed, and tightened between shooters?

Why dumb things down. So if new shooters can't hit past 10 yards do we keep all the targets at 10 yards and in? Sounds like your sucking the challenge and fun out of the match that way.

[mulrick]

At my club, guys complained about the spinners at our monthly action pistol matches... Now again this is pistol only, outlaw club match twice a month. The argument was that we attract new shooters with this match, and the 3 spinners we used ( 6 stages) were causing issues for the new guys. So we started painting them white and treating them like the other static steel target... 2 hits on top and 2 on the bottom to neutralize, bonus to spin it. This actually added a new element to the "gamming" of the stages and made for some close competition in the upper ranks and let the new shooters not feel discouraged to at least try to flip it but move on if they can't.

In majors I'm torn... For the reasons stated earlier, I like spinners because they provide a challenging target that as stated before, requires careful stage management and planning which to me is a big part of what separates the top guys. But on the other side I know how frustrating it is to have one of these things ruin a stage. Consistency is what we want, and I think the weight idea is a good start. Thing is, for major matches, there are guys who's sole job is to reset targets... is it too much to ask the spinner be checked, lubed, and tightened between shooters?

Why dumb things down. So if new shooters can't hit past 10 yards do we keep all the targets at 10 yards and in? Sounds like your sucking the challenge and fun out of the match that way.

That was originally my thought too... but my thought was not the majority, and when brought to a vote, the club spoke.

Its funny that that is where they ended up drawing a line... Im pretty sure our MD is related to Satan, and puts together some tough stages, like obstructed stars, some just plain evil no shoots, and fault lines that make it hard for gymnasts to shoot clean. Yet that is where the stink was... such as life

[bigbrowndog]

This thought hit me the other day,...........you have two plates on this thing,you could just require the competitor to hit each plate AND cause it to fully rotate. this would eliminate the gaming or use of "special" ammo to get it to rotate because you need to rotate it and you need to hit each plate, not just ONE, simple painting of each plate during reset would confirm the required hits???

oh wait, I just said we need to paint steel for each shooter,.......................nevermind that'll never work!?!?!?!?!?

Trapr

[1chota]

Why not just require the 2 hits? spin ain't that important.

[bigbrowndog]

Wynn, folks have the target, if you just require the 2 hits why not just have 2 plates and no spinner?!?!?! If the spinner has to be used as a target, for whatever reason??? folks want competitors to "spin it" but then they don't want you to use buck or slugs or whatever. So if you're going to stipulate what ammo, then just stipulate a hit on each plate with a spin, then everyone has to wait, the required??? amount of time for the second plate to present itself for the spinner to rotate, instead of stop the rotation.

Which brings an interesting physics problem up, MD/RM's don't want us using buckshot/slugs, but birdshot out of a specialized wad, or 1 7/8oz loads at 1300-1600 fps is OK???? seems to me the harder than lead stuff and prairie storm stuff is likely to do MORE "damage" to the target than any low recoil 1oz buckshot load ever would, but hey what do I know.

Trapr

Edited June 17, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[P.E. Kelley]

Hmm I wonder if a powdered metal slug will spin it in one? No damage to the target nor any splash-back.

[Jeff F]

I enjoy shooting the spinner. We have even shot them at a local match with a pistol. The bigger bullets usually work better.