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I shot this target last year at about 30 yds with a rifle. Shot it once before with a shotgun. I use 77 gr most of the time so no problem there and I always bring some heavy shot (it's Prairie Storm now) so no problem there. However, they are inconsistent. By the time we got to the spinner it was covered in lead dust and spall plus was covered in mud from splatter and most definitely was not free spinning the way it was when we looked at it in the day before. The shotgun spinner I shot was really covered in lead dust and spall, and scratchy. And there is no real challenge to that. If it's take it or leave it, you can have it. I take heavy shot and modified chokes and use them at matches that are known to have "heavy steel". Learning to live with inconsistent steel and targets is kind of the way 3 Gun is, but that doesn't make it correct. Many of the people who like these spinners are Ironman aficionados or from out that way (nice video Russell). I have to agree with Trapr-you can't calibrate them in a normal way. Spinners are great practice targets. I agree that they are like most targets if you get used to them they become easy to shoot, which is like most things in life. A lot of people have never seen them and while entertaining that may be for some observers, it isn't for me . They are hardly the most inconsistent targets in 3 Gun-that would be faraway flashers called by RO's. Give me Larue's any day. Spinners are definitely not a target that goes fast. So for USPSA Multigun, not a viable target. DVC

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It finally dawned on me, some are USPSA shooters, some are outaw shooters, seems to me that is where the division lies.

I try to only shoot outlaw matches, and that's where my perspective is based.

My brain works much like I shoot, slower everyday :roflol:

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I have made my thoughts on this target clear locally; I don't think it is a target that is fair to every competitor. The casual shooter that shoots 3 or 4 matches a year are not going to be able to spin it with a hand gun. That means that you know going into a match you're going to be 30 to 60 seconds behind before you start. At our last 2 gun match by my calculations only around 25 percent of the shooters spun the target. Yeah I am not that good but I don't like giving up that many seconds. Human nature what it is most of us try anyway so that probably adds another 10 go 20 seconds. I see your position if you like it but for somebody who does not have access to a spinner to practice it kind of sucks. 10 years ago I would have purchased a spinner and practiced the hell out of it but at almost 69...... well if matches continue to use them who knows?

just my .02

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It finally dawned on me, some are USPSA shooters, some are outaw shooters, seems to me that is where the division lies.

I try to only shoot outlaw matches, and that's where my perspective is based.

My brain works much like I shoot, slower everyday :roflol:

That is not at all where the division lies. I shoot a grand total of one USPSA multigun match a year. I shoot a few USPSA pistol matches a year when I can. I shoot 12-20 outlaw 3 gun matches a year. KurtM is the father of outlaw 3 gun. Trapr is certainly one of the forefathers. Pat Kelley isn't crazy about them and he's forgotten more about 3 gun than I'll ever know. The spinner is an interesting but inconsistent and sucky target. I don't think you're intentionally trying to tick people off here, but you might want to stop labeling people as sour grapes and splitting them into pistol shooters and 3 gunners because they may not appreciate it very much.

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I like the spinner as it changes the game and rewards people for using more powerful ammo. I understand the concerns about consistency but nothing is perfect in this sport. Some guys get to shoot a long range stage in the morning with no wind and others shoot it when the wind is blowing 30 mph.
Pat

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I'm 98% sure my spinner at home has not been lubed for OVER a year :surprise:

It still spins freely, takes 3 GOOD hits, 4 semi good hits :ph34r:

I sold a swinger (not a spinner) to a guy about a year to two years ago. When it was delivered, he assembled it, and said that it didn't move quickly enough for him. So in our PM's back and forth, I had included pics of the bearings. It is an iTater pic, so you can just barely make out the hole (one of about 4) that the grease is supposed to squeeze through.

170970A1-A5C5-42E2-B645-84A9331601DA-265

I just found it easier to take a syringe and fill it with some gun oil, stick the needle in that hole and pump in the gun oil. Sometimes the original grease gets pushed out of the other holes.

Hooking a grease gun onto the zerk and pumping grease in there does nothing. The grease would rather squeeze out through the gaps of the bearing housing.

So these comments about dirt and lead splatter getting in the bearings I find hard to believe.

Edited by Chills1994
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I like them for a shotgun target. They make shooters slow down and think. When I put one out at our local match , I grease it, then set it up about 15 yds from the fault line and shoot it with an IC choke and Federal bulk 7.5's because that's what 95% of our locals will be using. I can always spin them in 3 shots, occasionally 2. If a shooter whines too loud I'll shoot it to prove it can be done. It's a nice change from poppers, plates, and clays.

I don't like them for a rifle or pistol target. Hit the top paddle as it going away from you an who knows where that round just went? Definitely over the berm!

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It finally dawned on me, some are USPSA shooters, some are outaw shooters, seems to me that is where the division lies.

I try to only shoot outlaw matches, and that's where my perspective is based.

My brain works much like I shoot, slower everyday :roflol:

That is not at all where the division lies. I shoot a grand total of one USPSA multigun match a year. I shoot a few USPSA pistol matches a year when I can. I shoot 12-20 outlaw 3 gun matches a year. KurtM is the father of outlaw 3 gun. Trapr is certainly one of the forefathers. Pat Kelley isn't crazy about them and he's forgotten more about 3 gun than I'll ever know. The spinner is an interesting but inconsistent and sucky target. I don't think you're intentionally trying to tick people off here, but you might want to stop labeling people as sour grapes and splitting them into pistol shooters and 3 gunners because they may not appreciate it very much.

Not trying to piss anybody off, there are quite a few USPSA 3 gun matches around here, I assumed there were everywhere.

It just seemed the majority of the "dont like" guys always stated USPSA this , or USPSA that, or power factor.

I don't remember names, especially screen names , so if I haven't talked to you face to face, 5-6 times I won't remember a name, I do remember a face.

I still haven't seen an inconsistent spinner, no more so than many of the other targets we shoot, and calibration seems easy to me.

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The major problem I saw several years ago on Stage 7 at Ironman was the slugs were loosening up the bolts pretty often. You could tell when the bolts had come loose because the spinner would not react as quickly or as crisply as normal. I had DQed earlier in the match and helped RO Stage 7 as my punishment. I tightened the bolts on that spinner many times and even broke my pinky when I let the tools slip off. Despite the fact that I broke a finger on one, I like spinner targets and have shot them in matches with pistol, shotgun and rifle. As long as the ROs keep an eye on them they are an interesting target that requires attention, patience and knowledge of your equipment.

Doug

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Ok we seem to have gotten off topic, I wasn't asking if you liked the target or not. The question is how can it be "calibrated" or rendered more consistent. Brian the steps you take for a spinner in a match are to be commended, this is the type of forethought and behavior that a good RM/MD has. I would like to think that others do the same, after speaking with MarkP, I think he does an admirable job as well. But perhaps WE can all learn something from each others methods and take steps to keep the target more consistent in operation.

As for USPSA and non-USPSA, I think that division is crap!!!! its about making things as fair as we can for ALL competitors, I'm not talking about wind, and sunlight and rain, I'm talking about doing what we can, instead of being LAZY and COMPLACENT, and saying well it worked fine yesterday, or its the same for everybody when its not!!!! If you say its the same for everybody, how do you KNOW, did you develop a standardized method to check operation???? As for the comparison to a clamshell or drop turner, if wind is the thing that causes the change your right "deal with it" but if its lack of lubrication or a bent rod or grime in the mechanism then thats on the RO's and RM and MD to rectify.

Personally I feel we should not have targets in a major match that cannot be arbitrated or looked at to judge proper scoring. Yeah this is a game, but there are still rules and in the end IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Trapr

Edited by bigbrowndog
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I like them for a shotgun target. They make shooters slow down and think. When I put one out at our local match , I grease it, then set it up about 15 yds from the fault line and shoot it with an IC choke and Federal bulk 7.5's because that's what 95% of our locals will be using. I can always spin them in 3 shots, occasionally 2. If a shooter whines too loud I'll shoot it to prove it can be done. It's a nice change from poppers, plates, and clays.

I don't like them for a rifle or pistol target. Hit the top paddle as it going away from you an who knows where that round just went? Definitely over the berm!

Shoot at it with tracers at dusk to find out?

Same could be done with a rearward falling USPSA pepper popper???

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I think a lot of the problems that come about with this target is just being lazy as Trapr said. The target needs to be shot before the match, end of story. If it does not spin in the desired amount of shots move it closer or further away until desired results are achieved. Once its set, write down the choke and load used. If it solves more problems state that somewhere on the stage or atleast have it written down for any case of arbitration. It should not pose a problem given the spinner was shot before hand and maintenance has been kept up with. Yes, things do get looked over but it is up to the MD/RM to ensure the RO's on that stage are doing their job correctly. Any major I have RO'ed I made sure and asked the next squad whether or not they wanted the long range targets painted and if there were any irons shooters who wanted to go first to keep a level playing field. Same goes for the rest of the COF. Targets need to get checked to ensure proper function. If bolts need to be tightened, tighten them. If a flasher or spinner needs grease, grease it. Its simple. I don't think it is so much the target that causes issues. I think it is just the laziness of the particular RO's working that stage. Yes, we get tired after running back and forth all day but RO's are there to ensure everything runs smoothly and the shooters have an enjoyable experience. That laziness should not come back on the shooter.

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Calibration of spinners, as in a procedure similar to Poppers in USPSA, is not going to happen, but then it won't be happening for long range swingers, self-setters or Texas Stars either.

Doug

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I definitely agree with the sentiment of testing many different skills with the shotgun. Is a shooter learning anything by feeding in a 3" pheasant destroyer at the right time? Maybe not. Is it something to think about? Sure. Is it any different from saving some 77 grain SMKs for a 400y stage compared to 55s for everything else? I don't think so.

I'm all for any target that makes a shooter think. If shooters have to put in mental effort to flip, spin, track, or whatever, whether it's an aerial, a Texas star, a Scots-Irish Plate Pizza, bring it on, as long as it's consistent.

I imagine with a spinner, if you had a calibration shotgun and ammo for the match already, you could treat it similarly to a ballistic pendulum. Find a way to measure the deflection, maybe stick a protractor on it or something, or tape a piece of string to the bottom so you see how far it moves.

Edited by thermobollocks
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No way to calibrate. No way to arbitrate. Keep it out of majors. Use it for what it is, a fun target to throw in a local match, like a polish plate rack, etc.

If we followed that advice Major matches would less fun in my opinion. I like to see challenging fun targets like the Polish Plate Rack. In fact that is the only real criticism of the match in Texas I shot this year. I enjoyed the match but really wished their were targets like these.

Pat

Edited by Alaskapopo
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Not sure how this thread escaped my attention. Very thought provoking though. Thank you Trapr for starting the discussion and I think I've gotten some positive take away insight.

I often struggle with the duality of shotguns in our sport. Shotguns and shotgun ammo come in tremendous variety and thus we enjoy the wide variety of targets types they lend them selves too. Yet we want everything to be absolute. Shotgun stages are one problem solving exercise after another after another. I spend a tremendous amount of time in pistol and rifle practice but over the years I've come to appreciate and enjoy shotguns the most. Barrel length, magazine size, ammo selection, choke selection are all part of and should be part of the game. I like spinners as shotgun targets, because they add target variety, require some experience and strategy to shoot well and they force me to think about several different aspects of my game. At Pikes Peak I designed stages I wanted to shoot with problem solving exercises I wanted people to experience and solve. Spinners are fun to shoot (IMHO), serve to disrupt ammo reload plans and provide an opportunity for a different thought process. They aren't perfect, are un-calibratable and require some periodic maintenance... but the same is true for thrown birds. I dearly miss thrown birds if they are not present in a match, because they are a legit shotgun target and they are fun to shoot. Yet in 3gun thrown birds are shied away from and in some cases disapproved of because misses can't be arbitrated. That doesn't make them any less fun to shoot or relevant shotgun targets. I think that so long as flipping the spinner doesn't become the focus of the challenge (by that I mean making it difficult to flip) and the spinners are used as a problem solving tool, they are an appropriate and fun target for shotgun matches.

Spinner "application" is important too. Obviously they need to be maintained and I'm glad Trapr pointed out the one which shifted at our match, as he empowered us to fix it and be successful. I do think though that it is only fair to keep them in close and to provide other targets of opportunity to engage while waiting for the pendulum to swing. We didn't have any specific guide lines to follow for calibration, but Mark and I were in agreement that an experienced shooter should be able to flip it in 2 shots with the same gun and ammo used to test the other targets (nova with light target loads and LM choke). Why 2? Because the intent was to make the shooter solve a problem, but not take all day for the solution to manifest. There were 2 paddles, so 2 shots seemed reasonable.

Not sure if Trapr is subtly asking me to not have them next year, but I think a positive take away for me is that there should be some common sense application and maintenance goals for their use. I find these types of threads hugely beneficial.

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co-express-I think this is excellent. I like them as you describe. I like thrown birds also. Perhaps we will get to a spinner calibration in this manner. Make them for shotgun. 2 shots with standard ammo. A lot of this, as has been pointed out, is RO dependent.

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As far as calibrating it, no idea.

As a target im not a huge fan. Many people in this thread have stated that they use prarie storm or similar on it. Thats nice and easy, and I do as well. The problem is that people that dont know the "tricks" get additional time. You could say its because they arnt prepared, but thats BS. Being not prepared is having adequate equipment and failing due to lack of practice, not because you didnt buy the latest gimmick shells.

My local club has changed the rules, and the stage description always states that you cannot use anything larger than #7.5 2 3/4 shells. I dont mind it as much now, since its not free time for me anymore over shooters without 3^ shot shells.

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