MGM spinner targets, calibration?

[SinistralRifleman]

Just lube the target between squads or between shooters.

I think it is the best target the MGM makes, for several reasons. Some of the reasons are, it is self resetting, you can shoot it with any weapon including long range rifles, it requires accuracy, it requires repeated accuracy, it requires timing, and it also requires patience when we want to go fast.

If you want to require a one-shot calibration for it, all you need to do is to shoot the top target, and have a device to see if the bottom target is moving a required distance.

+1

I also like them because it is one of the few targets out there that power factor makes a difference.

[kurtm]

I dislike this target as it is now dictating the kind of ammo used instead of testing skill. Patients is taught to children at a young age, we dont need a target to reinforce it at the shooter level. People preport that it teaches timing, well where in practical shooting is that important? I think it only teaches "waist timing" and "waist ammoing". There is no way to calibrate, it will get greased between squads as much as targets get painted, and since it spun for the first shooter of the day it is "Still" perfect at the end of the day.

[El Guapo]

Spinners suck.

Kurt, it's patience and waste.

[ski_dog]

On my fun-o-meter, spinners make me frown.

[toothandnail]

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes here

I see it as any other non-paper target,

Get good hits, it works

Get BAD hits, you have to shoot it again, and again, and again,and again

[JPeel]

point I'm trying to make is that every target we shoot at is designed to do whatever its supposed to do fall, swing, pivot, drop whatever with ONE shot! and typically they are "calibrated" to do that with the same ammo as every other target in the match, WHY should this one be different???????????????

Trapr

Because as you described, there are a lot more variables that affect the force it takes to rotate the spinner. So unless someone wants to design and build an adjustable spinner I don't think it's reasonable to expect a spinner to be calibrated.

Our MD has two spinners, one with big paddle like blades that you can rotate with one hit from some light target rounds at a safe distance, and one with smaller plates that takes 3 to 4 well timed hits. We had both of them presented to us this weekend. Most of the shooters rotated them unless they ran out of shells before getting to them.

I know that our MD does take the time at stage setup to check proper operation of the spinner, grease the bearing / slide, and then shoot with different loads / distances to check that the average shooter will be able to rotate it.

[Stlhead]

As many of you know I am not an opinionated guy. I do have an opinion about MGM spinner targets. First let's cover some misconceptions that are even in this thread. The MGM spinner targets (spinners from now on) are not impossible or even all that difficult to spin once the not so secret trick is known. Wait for it........ If you actualy hit the moving plate when it is square to you and is going away from you, you will move it. Do this enough times, without too many misses (or any) the spinners goes over. You do not need special ammo of any kind to spin it. Often changing ammo is not helpfull to the shooter. I shoot 55's in my limited rifle, it spins, I shoot rem 7.5 light handicap shotshells, it spins, I shoot 124 in 9mm, it spins, I shoot 105's in my bolt gun, it spins. The real secret to the spinner is hitting the moving plate, nothing more. The current generation of spinners are very consistent. Even during a major match when they are getting hammered, they require no more maintenance that a plate rack or popper, and certainly less fiddling than a star. They do require daily lube, as well as making sure the fastners are torqued, but so do the rest of the actuated targets we use.

Now for the part that the USPSA type folks are going to get all upety about. Calibration. The spinner requires more than one hit to neutralize, and the quality of the hits on the target effect the speed at which it is spun. The distance that the spinner is engaged from also greatly effects the number of hits (and or quality of hits) required to spin the target. With his being the case, it requires more than one hit to spin a properly applied applied spinner target. It should be checked for calibration by a person who has shot enough spinners to know if the quality of his or her hits should be sufficient to spin the target. In other words it is subjective judgement call by the RO and or stage designer MD. In actual practice, a spinner is far more consistent than many of the targets that we see at matches, and far less subject to RO interpretation. Non falling rifle and slug steel at distance, even flashers, are often called incorrectly, and the RO yelling hit, or even worse miss, is a joke as far as FAIR goes. Larue targets are far worse. Flipped clays? Or to a lesser extent even thrown clays. Clam shell targets and a stiff breeze? The list goes on. If your goal is for absolute objectively quantified consistent target presentation for all shooters without any sort of judgement calls required, then go shoot bullseye, or three gun nation. The spinner target is a challenging target, that rewards timely hits on a moving target, where energy on target matters, that makes it very unique in our sport. Removing that challenge from matches would be a great disservice to the shooters.

Outlaw 3 gun is about shooters, challenging themselves and having fun. Every match has its own flavor and feel, not to mention rules and culture. The inclusion of spinner targets in a match is a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned. it is not impossible, or even all that hard, it just takes practice. Much less practice than becoming a proficient irons shooter, or being able to quad load a shotgun. It is about shooting and hitting your target, and isn't that what what we are trying to do?

We all choose the matches that we want to shoot. If you don't like spinners, don't go to matches that have them. Kurt, you don't shoot the Ironman, and I don't shoot USPSA 3gun. Fortunately there is room for all of us!

[bigbrowndog]

you make a good point Stlhead, however you also make the point that they require no MORE attention to operation than plate racks and poppers, which do get checked for operation everytime they get reset!!!! albeit rather nonchalantly, but they do get checked.

how often do you thing the spinner gets looked at????????? Also a shooter can call for calibration of all those other steel targets, the topic is how do we or should we go about calibrating this one. I agree that there are lots of other targets that we shoot at that cannot be called back for calibration, I don't particularly care for those in a MAJOR match either, so rather than get to the place with this one that we are with those, maybe we can come up with something that MD/RM's can use.

For what its worth, we the shooters came up with a lot of the innovations that are thought of as normal operating procedure by the shooters that have just gotten into the sport.

Trapr

[Stlhead]

Trapr, a spinner is checked for operation every time it is shot. As long as the axle is level, and the bolts are still tight (both visible from the shooting position), and it is going over with a reasonable number of solid hits (which is easy to judge after watching it get shot at all day). And yes you can call for a calibration on other targets, if allowed by the rules, but how often in non-USPSA matches do the rules allow it, or does this actualy happen.we can't call for a calibration of the wind, or the rain, or the sun, but we all manage to get by. I can and do shoot matches without spinners, but it does seem to me that the matches that have them are the ones that I look forward to more. Not directly because of the spinner, but that the matches that embrace that sort of added challenge and freedom tend to align more with my personal preferences.

Even if all matches stopped using the spinner I would still shoot it just as often. Imagine a plate rack that if you missed two shots in a row would completely reset and require you to start over. Now make it a moving plate rack with the same auto resetting action. The simple yet diabolical spinner does just that. It does not offer the calibration or arbitration ability of a moving self resetting plate rack, but it is certainly far less technically challenging to build and maintain. I think it is a good compromise.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Stlhead

[1chota]

HOCKEY PUCK! Plate racks and poppers are calibrated with a 9mm. As pointed out above the spinner requires a BIG power factor to make it spin. They are interesting but have no place in a major match. If someone wants to practice the doggone thing, then go ahead. but I side with Trapr on this one.

[SinistralRifleman]

I rotate spinners regularly with 9mm 115 grain and 3 dram 7 shot. The notion that they require big power factor to rotate is silly. They do reward using larger power factor.

Here's my how to shoot it video for noobs:

[ajg308]

It requires timing just like shooting any other moving targets in any sport we shoot. Flying clays, drop turners, swingers, etc. We all know everything that moves takes timing especially if you engage targets after the moving target had been activated and you engage static targets while waiting.

I agree with Pat and Stlhead, nothing to be afraid of, just hit the target and make sure its been lubed.

I've been shooting spinners for a long time and still think they are great. Most new people that get all twisted about spinners either are too impatient and waste their ammo or they just can't hit them.

As for calibration, maybe the best way is to get the MD and allow him spin it with a maximum number of shots/hits. If he can't do it, then it needs to be worked on.

With 9mm I can do it in 7 shots at 10 yards.

55 grain at 100 in 8

75 grain at 100 in 5

With regular bird shot it can be spun with a double tap to the bottom plate. Both hits have to be square, but is is possible.

[openclassterror]

We have people complain at our club matches every time the spinner is out. "It needs grease". "It isn't flat". etc, etc. I then proceed to flip it in 7-10 shots WITH 95gr BULLETS from my 9mm. Timing is important. Ability to put BOTH shots of a double tap on the paddle is important. Dang, HITTING the thing is important! I have listened to a guy rant about how it ain't right that his .45 ACP isn't powerful enough to flip it after watching him miss 8 out of every 10 shots, lose momentum during mag changes, then shoot it on the way forward and stop it dead. I test it before every match from the minimum engagement distance the stage allows, shooting #7-1/2 shot through a mod choke, and factory 115gr 9mm. If I can't flip it in 4 shots with the shotgun or 10 with the pistol, (assuming timing and actual hits) either the target or the fault line move. We still have people every match that are convinced there is black magic involved. As far as whether or not it is a realistic target, when was the last time (outside of a video game) where you were running through a field and there was a fully loaded AR15 waiting for you to pick it up and start shooting stuff? THIS IS A SPORT/ GAME! Master the challenge!

I have regularly flipped the spinner with-

147gr 9mm- 7 shots

95gr 9mm- 7 shots (1380 fps)

12ga 3dr #7-1/2, mod choke- 4 shots

12ga 3dr #7-1/2, turkey choke- 2 shots

12ga high base, 1-1/4 oz #6, mod choke- 2 shots

If you can't flip it with these parameters, get closer before you shoot, use a tighter choke, or learn when to shoot it. I saw somebody say above that the Texas Star was scary at first, and I agree. I nearly emptied a 22rd mag on my first try. I DID empty the mag on my first spinner. So, I studied it. Then I practiced it. Now I LIKE it!!!!!!!

[MarkCO]

Comes down to prevalence IMHO more than anything else. Mike put two in the Pike's Peak Shotgun Challenge, which I am sure somewhat prompted Trapr's question. I did test both, with a low recoil load, moved one a bit closer as a result. Shot them before the ROs shot, checked them both Saturday am and watched the first shooter on each stage. I shot them after the match...they reacted the same.

In his defense, we had 3 Pro shooters out giving FREE clinics on Friday afternoon and just one of many topics they covered was the spinner, and the techniques based on the various loads. When match sponsors have Pro Shooters teaching folks the techniques before the match...um maybe take the free clinic. I know for a fact we had three or four competitors shooting their first match who flipped it in 3 rounds due to the class. One of them missed almost all of the thrown birds...he had never seen them before and they were just a bit much for him. But he did fine on the spinner.

Most people who have trouble are those who don't understand the timing and kill the momentum by hitting a plate coming towards them.

I set up a Popper at 100 yards with a Black Sheep Clay kicker, shot the popper with the AR and after a few tries, was hitting the clay in the air with the AR at a 90% clip. Technically, that is a USPSA legal target, but I decided against using it in a match because it would be pure luck to hit that on the first try for almost everyone. Now if everyone had seen it, I would not think it would be a "too much" target for a match. I think the spinner is in that group. I bought a spinner after begin humiliated by it at IronMan. Now it is not a big deal, but I still won't use it in a major and never with slugs due to the prevalence issue more than anything else.

[bigbrowndog]

So you DO calibrate it!!!! thats fine, but in my opinion 4 shots with "normal ammo" is too much, for SG. Which is why when MD write rules about calibration ammo for targets they have always used 1oz loads, I do not recall ever reading anything heavier. 2 shots should be the requirement as there are 2 plates. I agree that you need to get your pattern centered on the target, it does make a difference and I to have seen others place half a pattern and then whine. but then I have seen others whine about a no shoot target being impossible to not hit when engaging a shoot target, at matches that I MD/RM, ALL of the shotgun targets are proofed with Cyl. bore and 1oz loads, if a shooter complains then I shoot the target in front of them to prove it to them.

A lot of people do not call for calibration because they assume it can't or won't be done, thats their fault. A shooter should always ask for the RM if a question on a target develops during a match.

I also think that if its used as a pistol or rifle target, then yes the match should state the minimum rounds needed to spin the target with the standard pistol and rifle calibration ammo, but then they also need to be prepared to do so on command or request for calibration.

Stlhead, the bolts and level pivot are my points, I have seen the bar become unlevel during a stage and have to call it to the RO's attention. They should be on top of those things. So if they aren't noticing something that is plainly visible, are they really checking bolt tightness?? How many times have shooters just chalked up the inability to spin it to poor marksmanship, instead of going and looking at the target??? Heck most everyone on this topic has decided all the issues is due to poor marksmanship already!!!!!

Trapr

Mark, I actually had no issues with the spinners used in Pikes Peak, however I did see several people struggle and it became a discussion point with my fellow travelers on the ride home. Other than the adjustment that was made to the one I pointed out to you, I never saw anything else done to them, but that adjustment had to be made and how do we KNOW that it didn't affect anybody???? we assume it didn't but do we really KNOW?????

Edited May 26, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[Stlhead]

Trapr,

Next time I see you we can sit down and discuss the matter in person over large quantities of beer. I am afraid that I lack the writing skills to properly express my point.

[MarkCO]

I do not know for sure. The RO missed it granted. But I still contend that they (the good ones) are EASIER to spin as they start to tilt to one side due to gravity. Yes, I have tested those actual spinners. Give it to me at 45 degrees and I can spin it with one less round of low recoil. However, your point is not lost, and is valid regardless.

I also know that RMs have different shooting skills. First Noveske I had 10 popper calibration challenges at least, shot them all down with 122 PF ammo. Next one, a few less. At PPSGC, had one. Still have never missed and all went down. But if I am at a major, and I leave a Popper up for whatever reason, I am going to ask for calibration. At an Area match, I know they were set well over minor, I have also seen several RMs miss the shot giving the shooter a reshoot due to poor shooting skills. That is not good either.

Edited May 26, 2014 by MarkCO

[LoganbillJ]

Trapr, what would you consider calibrated? Have the stage description dictate how many shots it should take given a certain setup? Or just be shot at said distance to ensure proper function?

I don't agree that a spinner should only require 2 shots to spin as it defeats the purpose of timing to an extent. Especially using cylinder and 1oz load. I do agree that it should not take an unreal amount. I feel 3 or 4 perfectly timed and placed shots is perfect for shotgun. I also think if there is a spinner on a stage there should be other steel targets nearby to minimize the "time wasted" on waiting for spinner. It also presents a risk reward scenario for the shooter which enhances the stage as well.

[bigbrowndog]

I don't know what it should take??? I'm just suggesting that 2 shots would fit the current methodology, given that there are 2 plates.

If its 2 shots with 1.5oz 4dram ammo then state that in the rules and match descrip. so that people know PRIOR to signing up, or at least when they read the match requirements ( yeah. like people read) but there should be some kind of means to calibrate it as fairly as possible during a match to ensure even and consistent operation for all competitors. there are enough things going on that MD/RM's cannot or "choose not" to do to ensure fair play, lets try and not add to the list.

Trapr

[amccallister]

I recently shot a big local match that incorporated a spinner (pistol target). I showed up the first day of the match to game the stages, and watched several people turn it with no issues. The second day, when I shot the match, the spinner was noticeably dryer/ harder to spin, as it was not greased between days, and very few people turned it. I'm not saying this because I had a personal issue, I just hammered it and turned it no problem. But I still feel like the target did not present a fair stage to the average shooter. I saw people on the second day hit the target repeatedly in a manner that would have turned it on the first day, that didn't get it done on the second day. I love the spinner personally, I just think a reasonable effort should be made to make it fair for all competitors.

[toothandnail]

I'm 98% sure my spinner at home has not been lubed for OVER a year

It still spins freely, takes 3 GOOD hits, 4 semi good hits

[kurtm]

"Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes here".

Toothandnail, do you really think the people chatting about this abomination can't deal with it???? Do you think I have much trouble with them??? I don't at all, but I still detest it as a target.

Everything we do is timing like shooting moving targets? Poppycock! Lets take skeet, it is initiated by your command not a beep and the hit isn't timed if it was there would be a big pile of chips close to the skeet house.. not out in the field. In our world the faster you get on it the faster your time, not so with the spinner, which you have to WAIT for the perfect time to shoot it.

[actionshooter]

I'm not sure you could actually calibrate one,

But can you actually calibrate the time it takes for a clamshell to close the same for every shooter? How about a clamshell and a little wind? I have seen way more problems with a shooter getting more time in that exact scenario than having problems with spinner. Every problem I have seen with a spinner has been operator error.

Another problem I think we have in calibration are the long range targets with a spotter calling hits on some type of flash target. That's got to be the most inconsistent target out there, depending on the spotter/RO

Just this weekend I shot a local and could see the hits through the scope, (they were low hits, but on target) and I could see the orange "flash" but the spotter couldn't. Not whining, just an example.

How about clay flippers, try and calibrate one of those so every single clay is exactly the same for every shooter.......

Get rid of everything that we can't calibrate 100% of the time and the matches are going to be pretty boring.

[Brian Payne]

We have used the shotgun spinners at our shotgun match for the last few years. We paint the area around each leg to make sure they haven't moved or sunk into the ground and they get a shot of grease and given a good spin each morning during the match. As RM I also check it several times per day to try to cover the "just in case" scenarios. We also limit ammo to no larger than 7.5 shot at 1300 fps., use what ever choke you prefer. We put two spinners on the same stage along with other steel targets so that you can entertain yourself while the chosen spinner lines it's self up for the next shot.

If you have 120 shooters going through your match, you will need to lube the spinner. I don't know if it is the lead dust or what, but they will get dry and spin harder over time. There isn't a lot of difference, but there is a difference.

I like the target, but I did see several very good shooters take on a spinner at a Major 3-gun match where the failure penalty was so high that it basically cost them the match because they couldn't turn it. It was sitting at the 20 yrd range and if you didn't have some heavy ammo to use it was tough to spin. The local Walmart sold out of pheasant loads after the first day.

I don't like the idea of this target taking people by surprise. If used, make sure it can be shot with 1200 fps 7.5 shot ammo, and that the RM keeps an eye on it throughout the match.

[Sterling White]

Trapr, Kurt, and others - I understand your point however as a competitor I see the spinner as a challenge and it's my problem to solve. Yes I frown, yes I smile, and yes I even kick dirt once in a while but that is what i enjoy about different matches.

That said, the spinner demands a lot from a shooter, ie., timing of gun and timing of a moving target, sight alignment, trigger control, and ammunition management. I like the idea that it is a target that requires a higher power factor. Yes, if you bring a 9mm to play then you better bring some hot and heavy loads; if you bring bird or buck shot then you better bring some hot and heavy loads plus you better know how these function with different chokes at different distances; and if you want to neutralize one with a slug or rifle then you better know a little about timing and be able to make a hit.

The one looming issue with the spinner that has been around for a while has been the freedom to choose any shotgun ammo. More and more restrictions are being placed on this at local and large matches so the opportunity to use 3" heavy-shells is diminishing. Several years ago while RO'ing at the Ironman one squad came through with 3" heavy-shells and we had to pick the spinner up off of the ground a number of times.

I say leave it up to the match director to decide and make sure that requirements on size or speed of shot or single projectiles is printed ahead of time.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Sterling White