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MGM spinner targets, calibration?


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Me personally and quite a few other well experienced shooters as well, believe that this target really has no need to be in a multigun match, except as a side event.

The reasons are that it is a hard target to keep consistent in operation throughout a match, dust, lead fragments, stand position, lubrication needs and pivot bar orientation all seem to affect the consistent operation of this particular target.

Now, pretty much every steel target gets "calibrated" per se in a good major match, poppers and such obviously get done per USPSA rules, plates for SG should be shot with the designated calibration SG and ammo that should be listed in the rules, to ensure that they fall and in the case of being next to a no shoot that the shot is doable without incurring the no shoot penalty. Every target that gets calibrated is done so with ONE shot, not multiple shots.

How could we "calibrate" the spinner????

There are two separate plates on the target, so it could be reasonable to assume that the target should be able to be spun with one hit on each plate???? but it should be using the choke, gun and ammo used to "calibrate" all the other SG targets????? from the closest distance a competitor can legally and safely engage the target. This would typically mean 2 shots from walmart 1oz loads, or any other 3 dram 1oz load. This would still allow shooters to use special loads to get the target to spin with one shot, but would minimize the advantage over those that do not have the luxury of buying it, or finding it. Especially if we are going to allow competitors to use a 20ga.!!!

Trapr

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I remember a thread here on BE a few years ago after a Nationals pistol match where a bunch of GM's got dinged with a PE for each shot fired for not holding an ammo can in their weak hands "in a typical luggage carry position". IIRC, most of the GM's carried the ammo can in a football type position.

My point being that I remember two new phrases being thrown about in that thread:

"monkey prop tossing"

"bubblegum IPSC" or "BIPSC"

So is 3 gun now at the "bubblegum" phase?

As much as I like to fabricate targets, especially ones that move, I don't see a real practical application for that kind of spinning target.

Edited by Chills1994
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I used to shoot IDPA then found 3 gun to be much more fun because of the lack of structure/rules. The rules didn't even let you point you finger at the target. With 3 gun you get a chance to rehearse the stage.

Point is 3 gun is a game. Gaming is not only allowed, it's encouraged. Look at the spinner as a challenge and figure that part of the game out. I used to have problems with the spinner until I looked at it as part of the game and loaded for it. We have a #6 shot maximum for the stage however I've got a SBE and the 3 1/2" turkey loads really make her spin.

When I hear people say something like "that's not real world" I laugh because 3 gun is a game, not training. Let's shoot the spinner and have some fun.

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I will agree, I don't like spinners. Shoot it now, or wait a half second, shoot the top, or bottom, or bottom, then top, but wait, not now, ok, now shoot it....

We can waste plenty of time shooting spinners, or waiting to shoot spinners, that could be used for shooting MGM flash targets at 200 yards from some kind of crazy doubled-up position on top of, under, or inside a car or barricade.

But we all enjoy different aspects of the game. :). I'm one of the few that would run 1/4 mile or climb a half a mountain to shoot a target worth a 15 second penalty.

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I shoot 3 gun because I enjoy a challenge. I enjoy spinners. What's the point of 3 gun if you aren't encouraged to make choices on choke or load selection? I recently built a rifle spinner for some of our local matches. It, like the shotgun spinner is challenging, fun and about timing. No, I won't put the rifle spinner at 200 yards just like I wouldn't put a shotgun spinner at 40 yards. Especially at a local monthly match that draws less experianced shooters. Everything should be used in moderation and with thought about less experienced shooters in mind. Also, like has been stated many times before. If you don't like certain targets or rules don't shoot that match.

Edited by LoganbillJ
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point I'm trying to make is that every target we shoot at is designed to do whatever its supposed to do fall, swing, pivot, drop whatever with ONE shot! and typically they are "calibrated" to do that with the same ammo as every other target in the match, WHY should this one be different???????????????

Trapr

Edited by bigbrowndog
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I shoot 3 gun because of the "adapt/over come" targets, and especially why I like natural terrain matches.

Pretty simple in my mind, how to make it consistent.

1Match rules should dictate the max shot size that is legal.

2 Decide how many shots you think it should take,

3 Shoot it with the max legal load, adjust the distance accordingly

The "even playing field" comment I hear so often makes me sick. There is NO SUCH THING, you can't have an even playing field.

A good example was the last match I shot, had 3 disappearing targets, it was a windy day, the wind was swirling around.

Some guys got maybe, a half a second window to shoot as the wind was blowing with the movement of the target.

Several got close to 5 seconds as the wind held the movement of the target.

OH, that same match had a spinner, the wind was horrible when our squad shot it, only 2 out of 12 on our squad spun it

They were the only ones who had XX full turkey chokes.

Lesson - bring more chokes next time

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I like them a lot now, not so much in the past. In fact you could say I almost had a "take my toys and go home attitude" about them. Just couldn't get the hang of them until I started paying closer attention to how they are set up, the angle I shot them from, distance, etc. Now it's just about simple physics and timing...

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I "calibrated" two yesterday with 2 oz of #6 at 1150 fps and a flitecontrol wad. It "calibrated" the legs right off of one of them.

I don't like the "circus" factor of them. Now that I've been bitten once by them, I have to carry a few special rounds to deal with one in a timely manner. Most shooters are not going to know to do that or take the time to make sure they're properly equipped.

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Most shooters are not going to know to do that or take the time to make sure they're properly equipped.

What else should we eliminate from a match because "shooters" are not prepared?

I recall several matchs, where several guys had NEVER shot their rifles past 25 yds (shot only indoor) they struggled to hit a 12" plate at 100yds.

Maybe I only want to shoot a 20ga with #9, 700 fps, 1/2 oz load,

those plates are too hard to knock over, maybe we should replace them with a clay that only takes 1 bb to be "hit"

I remember the first time I saw a Texas star :goof: , yeah I sucked, took at least 15 rounds to clear it.

I didn't tell the MD to remove it.

I didn't, NOT go back to that match.

I didn't QUIT.

I DID, go home and practice

I DID, build one of my own.

This also reminds me of a couple I delt with when I ran our race track.

At one race there was only 1 kid with a 50cc bike (4 years old)

At the riders meeting I asked if there were any objections to him riding in the 90cc class, there were NONE.

Well he got 2nd place.

The parents of the 4th place kid were pissed and demanded a trophy for their kid, afterall, "he WAS the 3rd place finisher witha 90cc bike" :roflol:

ETA ; For some reason, my mistake I'm sure, my last sentance didn't post ? ?

What I told them, and the point of my whole post.

"Seems to me you have 2 options, go home and Practice more, or quit."

I think they quit

Edited by toothandnail
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Most shooters are not going to know to do that or take the time to make sure they're properly equipped.

What else should we eliminate from a match because "shooters" are not prepared?

How about slugs over 50 yards and unpainted long range steel? We could all do without those too. Your sarcasm and rant are appreciated however, though misplaced.

I've only seen a spinner once at a major match. That boils down to who has seen one of these before and who has some buddies that will loan him a 3" round (both of which worked out in my favor, fortunately), not who is the better shooter.

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It is a tough one for sure. I have more penalties on MGM spinners from 1 IronMan than all my penalties combined for every other major I have even shot! I like Travis, but I hate spinners with slugs!

I will put them in the local matches so people get exposed to them, but they are not a target that can legitimately be challenged under USPSA rules, so I don't/won't use them at Noveske.

I have given 6 3" shells to competitors, and it resulted in 2 jams, 2 broken guns and 2 one shot flips. I don't like folks taking the risk of tossing their match for one target.

I set them up and shoot them from the shooting position. For shotgun with low recoil through a LM choke, top and double the bottom. If I can not spin it, I move it closer. But if I am shooting it for score, one round of Prairie Storm is my preference. For pistol, I shoot a 122PF load and if I can not spin it with the right sequence in 11 rounds, I move it. I can spin them with rifle at 150 yards, but it is too much for a major IMHO.

As for consistency, they really don't change. Even if one side is lower, it still takes the same energy transfer to spin it. Gravity offsets any small amount of side load on the bearings.

There are some targets that just don't belong in majors, maybe the spinner is one of them.

Edited by MarkCO
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I've shot a few major matches around the Southeast, and I've yet to encounter one of these targets. That said, I always have some heavy and some extra heavy rounds in my ammo box to deal with tough shotgun targets. I will let you all know what I think about them after I encounter one. I agree that competitors being ill-prepared is not a reason to take them completely out of matches, but consistency could certainly be if they do not remain "equal" challenges for every shooter.

Edited by wgj3
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I see all these guys talking about shooting #6 's and 3" shells, prairie storm shells etc... but every match , 3 gun and shotgun matches ,that I have been to, has stipulated 2 3/4 max and no bigger than 7 1/2 shot size. Is it different at the major matches? I would imagine that every match sets it's own rules with regards to shot size etc... but it seems to be the norm at the bigger matches to carry some really hot loads and heavier shot. Even the Nordic match dictates 2 3/4 and no bigger than 7 1/2 . Just wondering when a person starts going to national matches if stronger loads are usually allowed?

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The vast majority of matches have no restriction on shotgun ammo other than lead shot, buck or slugs as stated in the course description. I have not yet been to a major that allowed shot no larger than 7.5.

The shotgun can be a multi-dimensional weapon system. Limiting it to be one-dimensional takes away a skill that is part and parcel of the shotgun, even if seldom needed. Sure, some ranges have limitations on shot size, usually out of ignorance regarding fall distances.

Edited by MarkCO
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I think it is the best target the MGM makes, for several reasons. Some of the reasons are, it is self resetting, you can shoot it with any weapon including long range rifles, it requires accuracy, it requires repeated accuracy, it requires timing, and it also requires patience when we want to go fast.

If you want to require a one-shot calibration for it, all you need to do is to shoot the top target, and have a device to see if the bottom target is moving a required distance.

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slight thread drift...

Ya know if you guys didn't actually spring for these expensive spinner targets, you'd actually have money left over for spray paint to turn the other steel targets from bare steel grey to white. Ya, know, something that is actually visible on the Youtube videos.

:goof:

I am saying that partly sarcastically.

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I'm not a big fan of these targets. They can work OK with a shotgun (bird/buck at close range or slugs at intermediate distances), but with a rifle or pistol they are borderline impossible and I won't use them for anything other than a novelty club match.

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I like the target, it definitely is another skill set to be learned and once you have down they aren't hard.

The spinner has already been around for a while, but I remember all of these same comments when the texas star came about and now its a standard part of every match.

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I like the target, it definitely is another skill set to be learned and once you have down they aren't hard.

The spinner has already been around for a while, but I remember all of these same comments when the texas star came about and now its a standard part of every match.

Not sure I agree that buying 2oz Prairie Storm loads is really a skill.

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If we can get back on topic...how would you calibrate this target?

Should the threshold be two perfectly timed hits, top then bottom, with a ounce and a half of #6 from a full choke at 15 yards?

Probably not, right?

So what is the criteria?

I own one and know that greased and un-greased makes a BIG difference.

What about piss poor copies made by the local welder?

I am not "afraid" of this nor any other target at a match. This question is...if the target's function comes INTO question

how does a MD prove the target works as it should?

Some of us travel many miles at considerable expense to play this game we love. Having a target of ANY kind that is not

working properly makes for a bad day. Target that can not be seen with the naked eye fall into this realm as well. Targets

that are built wrong or set up wrong, have the same effect.

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If we can get back on topic...how would you calibrate this target?

Should the threshold be two perfectly timed hits, top then bottom, with a ounce and a half of #6 from a full choke at 15 yards?

Probably not, right?

So what is the criteria?

I own one and know that greased and un-greased makes a BIG difference.

What about piss poor copies made by the local welder?

I am not "afraid" of this nor any other target at a match. This question is...if the target's function comes INTO question

how does a MD prove the target works as it should?

Some of us travel many miles at considerable expense to play this game we love. Having a target of ANY kind that is not

working properly makes for a bad day. Target that can not be seen with the naked eye fall into this realm as well. Targets

that are built wrong or set up wrong, have the same effect.

You can't really do it in two shots, since timing would come into play and figuring out and applying some calibration device seems way too cumbersome.

If you really want to calibrate it, I'd think that the only practical way of doing it would be to calibrate it with something that spins it in one shot. That, or you just live with the fact that it's a target that might not be very consistent.

Edited by gose
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