RO..bravo mike. CRO 2Mike

[conrad]

Can a CRO overturn a hit? I had 2 edge hits at the upper AB zone. The RO called Bravo mike. I asked for an overlay then for the CRO. I asked him to look at the lower hit to see if it was a Bravo. He looked at both of the hits and called 2 mike. I was a little confused at first. Can he over rule a shot that I didn't ask him to look at? The range master came and I ended up back where I started at Bravo mike. I know I should just shoot better so as to not cause the problem.

[Jakobi]

9.6.7. He should have only looked at the hit you were challenging and called out the score for that hit. RM has final say and no further challenges to score can be made.

-Jake

Edited May 9, 2014 by Jakobi

[afoulk]

If the RM used an overlay and made a scoring call on the one hit that was challenged and awarded the other hit as originally called, it seems he did the right thing. If he made calls on both hits, it appears the RM was out of line.

Edited May 9, 2014 by afoulk

[OUshooter]

For arguments sake what if you had fired 3 rounds, and nor you or RO saw a low barely D hit. The CRO does see it. Would you rather have B D or B M? Could the original call still be questioned? How many calls on a given target can a shooter request?

[Nik Habicht]

I can tell you pointblank that whether I'm working as an RO, CRO, or RM I want the hits on each target to be called correctly. Why? Because to do anything less, disadvantages someone in the match.....

If I'm called to evaluate a target that was already scored by someone else, I'll examine the hit in question. I'll also score the rest of the target to confirm that we scored it correctly in the first place......

Most times that simply takes a glance.

Then again, as an RO I don't wait to be asked to overlay; I use overlays regularly in my initial scoring of targets.

[spanky]

9.6.7. He should have only looked at the hit you were chanllenging and called out the score for that hit. RM has final say and no further chanllenges to score can be made.

-Jake

I must be missing it so could you please point me in the direction of the rule that states that the CRO and/or RM can only overrule the call on a specific hit that is challenged? I realize that 9.6.7 states that you should indicate which hits are in question but that doesn't specifically state that the other hits can't be.

9.6.7 During a scoring challenge, the subject target(s) must not be patched, taped or otherwise interfered with until the matter has been settled. The Range Officer may remove a disputed paper target from the course of fire for further examination to prevent any delay in the match. Both the competitor and the Range Officer must sign the target and clearly indicate which hit(s) is (are) subject to challenge.

Edited May 9, 2014 by spanky

[afoulk]

I'd think the CRO would ask, "Why is that not a hit?" Seems an honest RO would cop to missing it, call B D and the scoring challenge to the questioned call would resume. Worst outcome is then B D. Shooter can request calls on any and all hits they don't have satisfactory resolution on. If a target gets pulled, realistically the D might get missed in the process of 9.6.7. because a clear indication of the questioned call is required to be marked on the target. To me, that's the section of the rule that means we only get to change the scores of the disputed hits and scores only go up or stay the same.

Conrad gives a good example why we shouldn't be trying to make "generous" calls in the first place. IMHO, the dispute with the shooter ends at the call on the one disputed hit, the rest is between the RM and the RO who didn't use his overlay.

[conrad]

I thought the CRO was only supposed to look at the hit in question. Because a lot of times the other hit gets pasted before he gets there.But I do see the point about an extra hit in the D zone. But in my case it was only 2 shots fired.

[StealthyBlagga]

I can tell you pointblank that whether I'm working as an RO, CRO, or RM I want the hits on each target to be called correctly. Why? Because to do anything less, disadvantages someone in the match.....

THIS. If I get called to look at the target as a CRO, I will call the entire score for that target to the best of my ability. If the shooter does not like the call, it escalates to the RM. We owe it to ALL the shooters in the match to do the most diligent and accurate job we can.

Incidentally, I will do the same thing if one of my ROs makes a call that I can see is questionable, even if I am not called over to review the target... often I see additional holes that they missed to the benefit of the shooter (or not, if the hole is in a no-shoot). I see this as part of my job as a CRO to ensure competitive equity and to mentor less experienced ROs. The score is not final until the score sheet is signed.

Edited May 9, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[conrad]

I was safe and had fun. That's was the main thing.

Edited May 9, 2014 by conrad

[frag316]

9.6.7. He should have only looked at the hit you were chanllenging and called out the score for that hit. RM has final say and no further chanllenges to score can be made.

-Jake

I must be missing it so could you please point me in the direction of the rule that states that the CRO and/or RM can only overrule the call on a specific hit that is challenged? I realize that 9.6.7 states that you should indicate which hits are in question but that doesn't specifically state that the other hits can't be.

9.6.7 During a scoring challenge, the subject target(s) must not be patched, taped or otherwise interfered with until the matter has been settled. The Range Officer may remove a disputed paper target from the course of fire for further examination to prevent any delay in the match. Both the competitor and the Range Officer must sign the target and clearly indicate which hit(s) is (are) subject to challenge.

Why would the CRO or RM rule on anything but what was challenged? It also doesn't say the CRO or RM will rescore the target.

[Nik Habicht]

I see nothing that prevents me from re-scoring the entire target. I also see nothing that requires that I look at anything other than the challenged hit. But here's my question for the folks who are fairly in the "can't do that" camp:

Do you believe that each competitor is entitled to have each target scored accurately for not only him or herself, but for every other competitor in the match?

[remoandiris]

I see nothing that prevents me from re-scoring the entire target. I also see nothing that requires that I look at anything other than the challenged hit. But here's my question for the folks who are fairly in the "can't do that" camp:

Do you believe that each competitor is entitled to have each target scored accurately for not only him or herself, but for every other competitor in the match?

I agree with your final sentence. However, the final sentence of 9.6.7 implies only the hits indicated are subject to challenge.

[Skydiver]

The various 9.2.x.1 sections seems to define the "score" as all the hits. So when reviewing a target, it seems valid to review all the hits on that target...

9.2.2.1 A competitor’s score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of hits per target, minus penalties, ...

9.2.3.1 A competitor’s score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of hits per target, minus penalties, ...

9.2.4.1 A competitor’s score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of required hits, minus penalties.

[remoandiris]

I'm glad I've never had to break out a magnifying glass. I have seen it done.

[spanky]

I thought the CRO was only supposed to look at the hit in question. Because a lot of times the other hit gets pasted before he gets there.But I do see the point about an extra hit in the D zone. But in my case it was only 2 shots fired.

If the hit is pasted then he can't do anything about it. If not, however, again, I still see no rules against it.

[spanky]

I can tell you pointblank that whether I'm working as an RO, CRO, or RM I want the hits on each target to be called correctly. Why? Because to do anything less, disadvantages someone in the match.....

THIS. If I get called to look at the target as a CRO, I will call the entire score for that target to the best of my ability. If the shooter does not like the call, it escalates to the RM. We owe it to ALL the shooters in the match to do the most diligent and accurate job we can.

Incidentally, I will do the same thing if one of my ROs makes a call that I can see is questionable, even if I am not called over to review the target... often I see additional holes that they missed to the benefit of the shooter (or not, if the hole is in a no-shoot). I see this as part of my job as a CRO to ensure competitive equity and to mentor less experienced ROs. The score is not final until the score sheet is signed.

Agreed.

[steel1212]

I thought the CRO was only supposed to look at the hit in question. Because a lot of times the other hit gets pasted before he gets there.But I do see the point about an extra hit in the D zone. But in my case it was only 2 shots fired.

If the hit is pasted then he can't do anything about it. If not, however, again, I still see no rules against it.

Personally if there is a questioned hit the target should be left alone, in my opinion. Also I really find it pretty sad that people don't want the correct score if it hurts their score. You shot what you shot. I would expect the same from the RO staff for every shooter.

[spanky]

I thought the CRO was only supposed to look at the hit in question. Because a lot of times the other hit gets pasted before he gets there.But I do see the point about an extra hit in the D zone. But in my case it was only 2 shots fired.

If the hit is pasted then he can't do anything about it. If not, however, again, I still see no rules against it.

Personally if there is a questioned hit the target should be left alone, in my opinion. Also I really find it pretty sad that people don't want the correct score if it hurts their score. You shot what you shot. I would expect the same from the RO staff for every shooter.

I agree with that, too. I'd prefer a target to not be touched at all until after we've scored it and moved past.

[conrad]

I thought the CRO was only supposed to look at the hit in question. Because a lot of times the other hit gets pasted before he gets there.But I do see the point about an extra hit in the D zone. But in my case it was only 2 shots fired.

If the hit is pasted then he can't do anything about it. If not, however, again, I still see no rules against it.

Personally if there is a questioned hit the target should be left alone, in my opinion. Also I really find it pretty sad that people don't want the correct score if it hurts their score. You shot what you shot. I would expect the same from the RO staff for every shooter.

I agree to taking the correct score also. That's why I asked for the CRO. I didn't feel the RO was holding the overlay over the center of the bullet hole. On a side note I have told Ros that they missed a no-shoot. My hits are my hits good or bad.

[spanky]

I thought the CRO was only supposed to look at the hit in question. Because a lot of times the other hit gets pasted before he gets there.But I do see the point about an extra hit in the D zone. But in my case it was only 2 shots fired.

If the hit is pasted then he can't do anything about it. If not, however, again, I still see no rules against it.

Personally if there is a questioned hit the target should be left alone, in my opinion. Also I really find it pretty sad that people don't want the correct score if it hurts their score. You shot what you shot. I would expect the same from the RO staff for every shooter.

I agree to taking the correct score also. That's why I asked for the CRO. I didn't feel the RO was holding the overlay over the center of the bullet hole. On a side note I have told Ros that they missed a no-shoot. My hits are my hits good or bad.

I must be the minority because I like to be the one doing the work when I'm working a stage.

Edited May 10, 2014 by spanky

[ktm300]

When we mark a target for the RM we always give the complete call for the target, not just the hit in question. The the RM scores the target not just the one hit.

I always score the complete target when asked to review a scoring call.

[MarkCO]

The score is not final until the scoresheet has been signed. An unpatched target can certainly be scored, nothing prevents that. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say the RO/CRO/RM has "one chance" to score the target correctly.

Follow the rules, use the overlays and score the targets the best you can. But above and beyond that, competitors need to have integrity to not try and find something that does not exist in the rulebook to get a better score than what they earned.

[Skydiver]

The score is not final until the scoresheet has been signed. An unpatched target can certainly be scored, nothing prevents that. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say the RO/CRO/RM has "one chance" to score the target correctly.

Follow the rules, use the overlays and score the targets the best you can. But above and beyond that, competitors need to have integrity to not try and find something that does not exist in the rulebook to get a better score than what they earned.

Ummm. There is only one chance for the RM:

9.6.6 The Range Master’s ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed with respect to the scoring decision.

[mhs]

I see nothing that prevents me from re-scoring the entire target. I also see nothing that requires that I look at anything other than the challenged hit. But here's my question for the folks who are fairly in the "can't do that" camp:

Do you believe that each competitor is entitled to have each target scored accurately for not only him or herself, but for every other competitor in the match?

I normally view you as a sort of font-of-rule-knowledge/voice-of-reason, but this reply bothers me, twice.

9.6.7 requires that the hits subject to challenge be clearly indicated. Not ambiguous. No indication = no challenge.

Our beliefs don't matter. Lots of very good ROs believe things that contradict rules, yet they adhere to the rules. If you RO, you have (or should have) agreed to enforce the rules, and to do so impartially.