seanc Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Regarding the elongated bullet issue, the far better approach would be to simply score any shot that fully penetrates the target, regardless of the angle, as a hit on the highest scoring area the bullet passes through. This one and a half diameters stuff is going to cause big trouble--(you gonna have one guy assigned the job during the entire match to objectively and fairly run the dial calipers?)--and the difference between an X and a miss is HUGE. Because the par times are what they are...very tight..., the elongated hole thing is going to a real problem and source of controversy. There is no way it is going to be equitable despite best intentions of the match organizers. They should be using ipsc scoring methodology which I believe is that xactly what you are describing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think after listening to the anyalisis of the bullet speeds and flight times and all other gaming BS. The targets will be set at the time required by the rules of the stage. The time will be the same for everyone. As for the bullet hit on a target that is turning lets use this criteria. Skidders do not count. Bullet must penatrate the target. Bullet must be from front of target. Elongated holes which pass a scoring line take lower score regardless of which side of line the bullet starts on. Bullet holes larger than 1" do not count. This is simular to what is used at Bianchi Cup but they use more strict rule of 2X bullet Diameter. As to truning time the targets turn much faster than you think and if you fire after it starts to turn it is a late shot because you fired after the end of the time period. If we add .3 to the time then the same question arrises and you get .3 more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I think after listening to the anyalisis of the bullet speeds and flight times and all other gaming BS. The targets will be set at the time required by the rules of the stage. The time will be the same for everyone. As for the bullet hit on a target that is turning lets use this criteria. Skidders do not count. Bullet must penatrate the target. Bullet must be from front of target. Elongated holes which pass a scoring line take lower score regardless of which side of line the bullet starts on. Bullet holes larger than 1" do not count. This is simular to what is used at Bianchi Cup but they use more strict rule of 2X bullet Diameter. As to truning time the targets turn much faster than you think and if you fire after it starts to turn it is a late shot because you fired after the end of the time period. If we add .3 to the time then the same question arrises and you get .3 more time. I assume you were directing this at me as I am the only one to present a question about time. I do not believe my question about target presentation times to be gaming Bull $&it. My wife and I will be well over $2k invested in this event by the time we return from the International Revolver Championship not including time off work. I don't believe my question was out of line or as you called it "BS". I truly believe my question was valid and warranted upon learning such changes would be enacted only a month before the first shot is fired. I welcome the opportunity to add this new dynamic to the competition. The sport could use a shot in the arm. I do believe I and the other competitors deserve a better response for someone who is in a leadership position (that may or may not be you). Last year and other par time years we got the opportunity to shoot targets for 10.3 seconds from the beginning of the beep. Upon the first announcement of turning targets I wanted to learn what the times would be. I was told here in this thread, that the targets would be present and be available for a time less than in years prior. Heck I don't know what your timing intentions are, I'm not part of that conversation. Your critical assertions to the validity of my question I believe was unwarranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted May 29, 2014 Author Share Posted May 29, 2014 ty, the comments were not directed at anyone in particular. you are one of many that has expressed questions on times. the times are what they are according to the stage decsription. in reallity persons got extra time with the .3 overtime shot rule. with turning targets everyone is the same no matter their bullet speed or distance from the target i too spend lots of money to attend as i not only sponsor but i also drive 1700 miles and take off work for 10 days I have shot turning targets at the Bianchi Cup and in all my years of going i have never heard one protest on the overtime shot rule there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I have shot turning targets at the Bianchi Cup and in all my years of going i have never heard one protest on the overtime shot rule there. At the risk of beating the horse,the bianchi par times are considerably longer. Anyhow, I appreciate that match organizers made the changes known and listened to concerns, thanks! And thanks for sponsoring and all the work that goes into it. I am guessing you are responsible for getting the turners? see you next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lora Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) Bullseye shooters have been using the turning targets for nearly a century and as far as I can remember, the sliders are scored regardless of length and at the highest scoring ring touched. As Long as bullet passes front to back. And overtime shots don't apply since the target is not presented. That's the whole reason for the turning. Not sure why this is that complicated. As for a rule, why reinvent the wheel, use the bullseye rules as established by NRA/Camp Perry, since bullseye has had turning targets for such a long time. Edited May 29, 2014 by lora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Bullseye shooters have been using the turning targets for nearly a century and as far as I can remember, the sliders are scored regardless of length and at the highest scoring ring touched. As Long as bullet passes front to back. And overtime shots don't apply since the target is not presented. That's the whole reason for the turning. Not sure why this is that complicated. +1 I shot a Bullseye match on Tuesday night, the guy in the next lane had one. It was scored as suggested in the quote above. At the end of the day, i'm not that worried about the scoring as long as everybody is scored the same way. Taking the highest score insures that there aren't judgment calls. ty, the comments were not directed at anyone in particular. you are one of many that has expressed questions on times. the times are what they are according to the stage decsription. in reallity persons got extra time with the .3 overtime shot rule. with turning targets everyone is the same no matter their bullet speed or distance from the target i too spend lots of money to attend as i not only sponsor but i also drive 1700 miles and take off work for 10 days I have shot turning targets at the Bianchi Cup and in all my years of going i have never heard one protest on the overtime shot rule there. Timing is the issue. And regardless of the stage description the time has been +.3 Those that practice, practice timing as well as getting their hits. Asking about the time is a fair question, not BS. One question, will the new scoring rules be added to the rulebook prior to the start of that match? Thank you for your time and the time of everyone working to put on the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted May 29, 2014 Author Share Posted May 29, 2014 Brian, I don't understand what scoring rules you mean. Do you mean the .3 overtime or the bullet length? Each stage can have their own "rules" that are not addressed in the Rule book. (Ie Far and Near deducts 1 second for x ring hits, that is not in the rule book). The .3 overtime shot penalty can not be used as there is no timer on the shooters and target will not be presented to be shot, therefore the "skidders" rule. Since I am not the IRC MD and am just expressing my opinion just like everyone else here, my opinion is just that, my opinion. Final rules and any MD Decision will be made earily next week and posted at the shooters meeting. As for the Bullseye rules mentioned above. See Rule 14.3.2 in the NRA International Style Pistol Rules. skidders are only scored if 11mm or less in length Also see Rule 14.5 Early or Late Shots. The NRA Scores those a MISSES We are looking for disucssion on the most equatible way to score as ICORE had not used turning targets before. I welcome them although I detest Far and Near as a stage I welcome the challange. That being said the facts are simple. THE TIME WILL BE THE SAME FOR EVERY SHOOTER. If a shooter is practicing so they are that close to being overtime then they need to speed up. If you mess up your reload and don't get shots off the penalty is the same with turning targets or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I welcome the new prop. I sure hope the turners turn out to be the shot in the arm ICORE needs. I just wish I had an opportunity to shoot one for the first time at a range other than 50 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) As for the Bullseye rules mentioned above. See Rule 14.3.2 in the NRA International Style Pistol Rules. skidders are only scored if 11mm or less in length Also see Rule 14.5 Early or Late Shots. The NRA Scores those a MISSES Thank you for the reply! Not sure about the international rules, however here the text copied from the NRA Conventional Pistol Rules: 14.3 (a) In case of keyhole or tipped shots, the higher value is awarded if the leaded edge of the bullet hole touches the scoring ring of higher value, even though the hole is elongated to the bullet’s length rather than being a circle of the bullet’s diameter. (b ) In case of skid shots, the higher value is awarded if the leaded edge of the bullet hole touches the scoring ring of higher value, except the value of a skid shot may not be more than one ring higher than the original point of bullet contact with the target. The target shall be defined as the entire card or paper on which the scoring rings are printed but shall not include the backing. When the original point of bullet contact is on the target card, but outside the scoring rings, and the leaded edge of the bullet touches a scoring ring, it will be given the value of the lowest scoring ring. (c ) When a bullet enters a target from the back side it will be scored as a miss. For 14.5 Early or Late Shots, the targets are out of view at the cease fire. I guess you could hit the target, but you would probably cut it in have. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what NRA does, just an idea that seems to work. Edited May 29, 2014 by Brian Gonsalves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) Brian, I don't understand what scoring rules you mean. Do you mean the .3 overtime or the bullet length? Each stage can have their own "rules" that are not addressed in the Rule book. (Ie Far and Near deducts 1 second for x ring hits, that is not in the rule book). The .3 overtime shot penalty can not be used as there is no timer on the shooters and target will not be presented to be shot, therefore the "skidders" rule. Since I am not the IRC MD and am just expressing my opinion just like everyone else here, my opinion is just that, my opinion. Final rules and any MD Decision will be made earily next week and posted at the shooters meeting. We are looking for disucssion on the most equatible way to score as ICORE had not used turning targets before. I welcome them although I detest Far and Near as a stage I welcome the challange. That being said the facts are simple. THE TIME WILL BE THE SAME FOR EVERY SHOOTER. I apologize, I read the "criteria" in the post quoted below as a statement of how the scoring would be done. Not a suggestion or opinion. I think after listening to the anyalisis of the bullet speeds and flight times and all other gaming BS. The targets will be set at the time required by the rules of the stage. The time will be the same for everyone. As for the bullet hit on a target that is turning lets use this criteria. Skidders do not count. Bullet must penatrate the target. Bullet must be from front of target. Elongated holes which pass a scoring line take lower score regardless of which side of line the bullet starts on. Bullet holes larger than 1" do not count. Thanks again! Edited May 29, 2014 by Brian Gonsalves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I welcome the new prop. I sure hope the turners turn out to be the shot in the arm ICORE needs. I just wish I had an opportunity to shoot one for the first time at a range other than 50 yards. +1 You can practice before the match, you just have to get down there. Per Chris' email from 5/17: "Art Leach wanted me to let you know that the new mechanized target turners for Far and Near will be set up soon, and you are welcome to come try them out as soon as they are set up. We need to run shooters through it to work out the bugs. You will need to have a SLOSA representative with a CCFEF Card with you, but someone is always there the week or two before the IRC. I will send you another email when I find out that they are up and running." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I detest Far and Near as a stage I'm with you 100% on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtysanchez Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 It really is just another stage. As long as everybody is scored the same, who really cares. As for the "screw the whole match on 1 stage " theory goes, ALL stages have the ability to do that. Same for everyone........... Broken firing pin, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It really is just another stage. As long as everybody is scored the same, who really cares. As for the "screw the whole match on 1 stage " theory goes, ALL stages have the ability to do that. Same for everyone........... Broken firing pin, anyone? That's just a re-shoot right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtysanchez Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Not at my matches, but hell, when in Rome........ BTW, I'm just using that as an example, I have nothing but the greatest respect for the man, and if it was offered, I would have taken it too......... It is, however, a good example of any stage screwing your day. Not just this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Sorry for asking a dumb question, but are the far and near standards scored 0 seconds plus time added from targets? Or is it scored points down and par time? I'm assuming it's 0 seconds plus points down, but looking at last years results on that stage I was just surprised no one scored lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Stupid question number 2: Do you have to go prone at 50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cd662 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It's par time + penalty, so the base score is a 36 and you move up or down from that. X hits subtract one second per occurrence. Going prone is not mandatory at 50 yards, and if you can shoot Alphas freestyle at 50 yards with a par time then you are a straight up baller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 So those scores from last year were no joke. Need to bring the special bullets.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I think we need to follow the ICORE rule book when it comes to ICORE matches. We can not circumvent the rules in stage descriptions. If we do why do we have rules at all? When it comes to how to score a target specifically 6.5.4 which says you will get the higher hit. The rule book doesn't address an elongated hole so as far as I am concerned if there is a grease ring on the scoring side of a target you should be scored a hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 So those scores from last year were no joke. Need to bring the special bullets.... They are no joke and are actually some of the weakest scores on that stage in some years by the top shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 That year I think they took out the par times. A lot of X's were scored but the stage times were longer also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 That year I think they took out the par times. A lot of X's were scored but the stage times were longer also. Yeah, 2012 they took out the par times and rich came very close to zero'ing it and several other guys shot single digit times right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lora Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I think we need to follow the ICORE rule book when it comes to ICORE matches. We can not circumvent the rules in stage descriptions. If we do why do we have rules at all? Chris, only using the other discipline as a precedent. Since it has been a very effective method for scoring turning targets for decades with little room for misunderstanding. It's a suggestion to a starting point for adaptation. Which is basically as you suggested a skidder is the same as an elongated hole, the higher score through the front of the target gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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