Star with shoot and noshoots

[OUshooter]

I wasn't sure if this went here or down in design.

Is there any rule against having a star with a combo of steel shoot and no-shoots? Provided that the plates are in the same starting position for each shooter is there anything that says I can't?

Not sure if it's a good idea, the whole plates vs. REF thing. I've seen one plate knock off another, which is a reshoot no matter what. It's pretty rare but happens so not really considering that as a factor.

[spanky]

You can definitely have steel (including plates) no shoots. We've done it before.

[frag316]

I think this obviates using plates on a Texas star as no-shoots:

4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a non-scoring border. No-shoots may not have holes cut in them and be used as penalty targets that must be shot through to hit a scoring target; see 9.1.5.

(Emphasis mine.)

It appears to me that you cannot have a no-shoot that is not the same general size and shape as an authorized paper target.

[Thomas H]

I think this obviates using plates on a Texas star as no-shoots:

4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a non-scoring border. No-shoots may not have holes cut in them and be used as penalty targets that must be shot through to hit a scoring target; see 9.1.5.

(Emphasis mine.)

It appears to me that you cannot have a no-shoot that is not the same general size and shape as an authorized paper target.

That says "may" be used. It doesn't say they may only be used. I can think of plenty of matches in which various steel targets (poppers, mini-poppers, and plates) have all been used legally as no-shoots.

The rule statement above is merely to say that steel no-shoots may ALSO be in the general shape as paper targets, whereas (according to other rules) legal metal shoot targets cannot. This means you can have metal no-shoots in the shape of either paper targets, or other steel targets.

Anyway----yes, you can have one of the plates on a star as a no-shoot. (Or more than one.)

[frag316]

But it doesn't also say anywhere that plates may be used as no-shoots. The "may" in that sentence means that you don't have to use paper targets, but may use metal ones that are the same general size and shape of authorized paper targets.

You're reading the sentence incorrectly.

[JAFO]

I think that statement in 4.1.3 is meant to allow metal targets "in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets" to be used in addition to regular metal poppers and plates. If you read through 4.3.1, Poppers, Mini-poppers, and plates are all approved metal targets. There is no differentiation between approved scoring vs penalty targets, but metal targets in the shape of paper targets are not listed as approved. That's why I think 4.1.3 is making an allowance, should someone wish to make/use metal penalty targets in the shape of paper targets.

Add to that 4.3.1.8, which would apply to a no-shoot popper or plate:

Metal no-shoot targets which are designed to fall when hit, but which fail to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit, shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3. Failure to fall is not grounds for a reshoot per range equipment failure.

Edited May 1, 2014 by JAFO

[frag316]

*shrugs* Maybe you're right, but I don't read it that way. No-shoots are supposed to be one color or marked in some way, which is why we use the backs of paper targets to differentiate them. Black is for hard cover. What color are no-shoot metal targets then?

[Inkman]

*shrugs* Maybe you're right, but I don't read it that way. No-shoots are supposed to be one color or marked in some way, which is why we use the backs of paper targets to differentiate them. Black is for hard cover. What color are no-shoot metal targets then?

I've seen em painted red and described as NSs in the WSB.

Al

[JAFO]

When we've used them, they've been painted red. Typically, we've put them in a speed shoot without any paper no-shoots.

[Thomas H]

But it doesn't also say anywhere that plates may be used as no-shoots. The "may" in that sentence means that you don't have to use paper targets, but may use metal ones that are the same general size and shape of authorized paper targets.

You're reading the sentence incorrectly.

Nope. As many people will attest, metal no-shoots (as poppers of both sizes, and as round plates and square plates) have been used as no-shoot targets in various levels of matches. (And "may" is distinct from "must.")

As people have said---certain shapes of metal and paper targets have been approved as official targets in USPSA. Those target shapes may be used both as scoring targets, and as no-shoot targets.

Among other things, you might also look at the fact that discussions of no-shoot targets are placed in the discussion of Approved Handgun Targets for each type. (4.3 for metal targets, for example) You'll see, if you read carefully, that the initial wording is "approved targets" which sets the type (shapes) allowed, which is then separated into how "scoring metal targets" and "metal no-shoot targets" are differentiated. Also added (through 4.1.3) are additional allowed targets, which are metal in the shape of paper targets, but which may only be used as no-shoots instead of as no-shoots AND scoring targets.

*shrugs* Maybe you're right, but I don't read it that way. No-shoots are supposed to be one color or marked in some way, which is why we use the backs of paper targets to differentiate them. Black is for hard cover. What color are no-shoot metal targets then?

Some other color. (There are others we can use, after all...)

Amusingly enough, due to rules changes, while no-shoots can still be colored red, scoring shoot targets can't be colored red. I do know of several places where no-shoot plates normally are marked with a full-size "X" on them instead of using a solid color.

Feel free to read it however you like, of course. But at matches, you'll occasionally see metal no-shoots in the shape of standard metal targets.

[Sarge]

I would think you cN't paint them red since red is pointed out in the new rules as being taboo. I guess it must be a color blindness issue. If that's the case red should not be used anywhere?

[alma]

Pretty sure it have seen a Classifier or two with poppers as no shoots.

[Thomas H]

I would think you cN't paint them red since red is pointed out in the new rules as being taboo. I guess it must be a color blindness issue. If that's the case red should not be used anywhere?

Oddly enough, they specified scoring targets.

4.1.2.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, preferably white. Scoring metal targets may not be painted black, red or green.

And in the rest of the rulebook, they make a solid distinction between scoring targets and no-shoot targets.

In the case of color-blindedness, having a no-shoot red wouldn't make it any more difficult, as it would still be significantly distinct from both white shoot targets and black hardcover targets.

[Nik Habicht]

I think this obviates using plates on a Texas star as no-shoots:

4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a non-scoring border. No-shoots may not have holes cut in them and be used as penalty targets that must be shot through to hit a scoring target; see 9.1.5.

(Emphasis mine.)

It appears to me that you cannot have a no-shoot that is not the same general size and shape as an authorized paper target.

Best re-read that chapter......

4.1.1 Only targets listed in Appendix B are to be used for USPSA Handgun matches.

and

4.3 Approved Handgun Targets – Metal

4.3.1 Approved metal targets for use in USPSA Handgun matches (see Appendix are as follows:

4.3.1.1 Poppers (aka Pepper Poppers or Classic Poppers) are approved targets designed to recognize power and must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C.

4.3.1.2 Mini Poppers are approved targets designed to recognize power, are intended to simulate regular sized Poppers placed at greater distances, and must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C.

4.3.1.3 Pepper Poppers and Classic Poppers of all sizes may be included in the same course of fire.

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix B5), however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or Popper must be included in each course of fire.

No shoots are targets under USPSA rules, albeit targets earning negative points if struck.....

[Nik Habicht]

*shrugs* Maybe you're right, but I don't read it that way. No-shoots are supposed to be one color or marked in some way, which is why we use the backs of paper targets to differentiate them. Black is for hard cover. What color are no-shoot metal targets then?

Any color other than what the steel "shoot" target color is on that stage......

In the alternative they can be clearly marked. In matches I've RM'd they've often had an X out of black tape applied to differentiate them from shoot steel in the same color (white).

You may want to reach out to your RMI.....

[spanky]

*shrugs* Maybe you're right, but I don't read it that way. No-shoots are supposed to be one color or marked in some way, which is why we use the backs of paper targets to differentiate them. Black is for hard cover. What color are no-shoot metal targets then?

Any color other than what the steel "shoot" target color is on that stage......

In the alternative they can be clearly marked. In matches I've RM'd they've often had an X out of black tape applied to differentiate them from shoot steel in the same color (white).

You may want to reach out to your RMI.....

We usually paint a black x over the white steel to differentiate.

[spanky]

*shrugs* Maybe you're right, but I don't read it that way. No-shoots are supposed to be one color or marked in some way, which is why we use the backs of paper targets to differentiate them. Black is for hard cover. What color are no-shoot metal targets then?

Paint a black X on them.

[OUshooter]

The black x seems to be the easiest plus as stated makes it obvious it's a no-shoot.

[JAFO]

It would be just a little evil using black X's if you're stacking a no-shoot steel behind scoring steel, unless you can see the X's all the way to the top of the steel.

[thermobollocks]

I've seen lime green for no shoots at RM3G, which is not USPSA affiliated. I'm just not sure what color you're supposed to paint no-shoot plates if not white (scoring metal is white), black (hard cover is black generally), red, or green.

[RJH]

I recently attended an ro class and this was brought up. The reason for this is that the metal targets in the shape of paper targets do not have to be the exact same size as paper targets. So you can build a no shoot out of steel that looks like a classic or metric target and people can't say that a penalty doesn't count because the target isn't exactly the correct size. Normal plates and poppers are fine to use as no shoots if painted different as stated earlier.