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Planner

Pls check my rules justifications

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As I prepare to shoot my first club match (USPSA Whistling Pines, Colo Spgs, CO) May 5th, I've been reviewing the rules book. Rule 21 in App D4 (Production) says I have to demonstrate that my gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause which authorizes a disputed modification.

I've got a two guns that I plan to use for Production. My Walther PPQ is bone stock minus the sights. My Gen3 G19, on the other hand, is lightly tweaked. Would like someone to look at my listing below to make sure what I think is justification, passes muster. I struggled with a rule/clause for the Grip Force Adapter.

The items with an * are planned, but have not been done yet.

G17 magazines
- App D4 #7 handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm)

* Talon Grips Grip Tape

- App D4 #21.4 For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Glue and grit is considered the same as stippling.
* APEX Failure Resistant Extractor
- App D4 #21.6 Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.
Grip Force Adapter
- App D4 #21.4 Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.
* G34/G35 Slide Release
- App D4 #21.6 Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.
* G34/G35 Magazine Release
- App D4 #21.6 Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.
Stainless Steel guide rod
- App D4 #21.5 Guide rods are considered an “internal part” and may be modified and/or replaced with OFM or after-market guide rods even though part of the guide rod is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant.
Polished internals
- App D4 #21.5 Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific prohibitions).
Warren FO front sight/10-8 rear sight
- App D4 #21.6 Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.

Thanks.

Edited by Planner

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I do not agree with the Grip Force Adapter as it changes the contour of the grip and adds a beavertial. I don' t think this is what people expect "replacement grip panels" to be.

Eric

Edited by eric4069

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The Grip Force Adapter is a Specifically Prohibited Modification and Feature per D22.2: Grips - Any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

You may have to watch your gun's weight using the G17 mags. The weight given on the USPSA Production Gun List for the G19 is 23.7 ounces with an unloaded magazine inserted. You can only be 2 ounces over this weight.

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I do not agree with the Grip Force Adapter as it changes the contour of the grip and adds a beavertial. I don' t think this is what people expect "replacement grip panels" to be.

Eric

Fair enough. I looked at it from the perspective of a Gen 4 backstraps or different sized palm swells on an M&P (i.e. replacement grip panel).

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The Grip Force Adapter is a Specifically Prohibited Modification and Feature per D22.2: Grips - Any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

You may have to watch your gun's weight using the G17 mags. The weight given on the USPSA Production Gun List for the G19 is 23.7 ounces with an unloaded magazine inserted. You can only be 2 ounces over this weight.

Ok. I guess the GFA comes off. Everything else listed is legit? I'll weigh the G17 mags vs. the G19 mags. I've only got four of the G19 mags so I'll have to use a G17 or two to start a stage with four in reserve.

If my PPQ holster and mag pouch somehow arrives in time from Comp Tac, I can just run that one as is while I finish tweaking the G19.

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I think everything else is ok. I'm not an expert and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Your stainless steel guide rod probably adds weight over the stock plastic one, so take that into account as well. An indoor match will probably have shorter courses of fire so you could be ok with 40 rounds in your 4 G19 mags.

Remember that on any stage where you start with the gun loaded you can start with one in the chamber and 10 rounds in the mag.

Have fun and be safe.

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Stainless guide rod will be fine and won't add too much additional weight. Grip force adapter is out for sure. The Gen 4s come with interchangeable back straps from the factory but that changes nothing on the Gen 3s.

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Must fit in the box (should be okay) and not more than 2 ounces over listed with with magazine inserted. Grip tape, magazines, steel rod and sights. I'd be willing to be you are very close if not actually over the 2 added ounces allowed.

Kudos for reading the rules. Wish more first time competitors would do so.

Make sure to check out the section required safety program for new shooters too: http://ecouspsa.com/safety_program.html

The only time I have ever been checked is at an Area or National match.

You should plan to shoot the SuperClassifier at Colorado Rifle Club on May 10th too. Get in 6 classifiers, and you can even shoot more than one division if you want.

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Let me know if you want to go to the super classifier. We can meet in Littleton and I can get us the rest of the way out there.

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I think everything else is ok. I'm not an expert and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Your stainless steel guide rod probably adds weight over the stock plastic one, so take that into account as well. An indoor match will probably have shorter courses of fire so you could be ok with 40 rounds in your 4 G19 mags.

Remember that on any stage where you start with the gun loaded you can start with one in the chamber and 10 rounds in the mag.

Have fun and be safe.

Thanks for your input. I weighed the G17 mag on a food scale and it's less than an ounce heavier than the G19 mag. I'll weigh the two guide rods but think I'll be good there as well, particularly without the GFA.

I failed to mention that two of my G19 mags are loaded with Federal HST as the G19 wears a TLR1-HL and serves as my home defense gun currently. I've got two left and the four G17s I planned to use.

At some point, I'll cycle a few mags of JHP through my XDm 4.5" .45 and transition that one to home defense. The G19 is proven with the Federals so I know it will be reliable in a time of need.

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Must fit in the box (should be okay) and not more than 2 ounces over listed with with magazine inserted. Grip tape, magazines, steel rod and sights. I'd be willing to be you are very close if not actually over the 2 added ounces allowed.

Kudos for reading the rules. Wish more first time competitors would do so.

Make sure to check out the section required safety program for new shooters too: http://ecouspsa.com/safety_program.html

The only time I have ever been checked is at an Area or National match.

You should plan to shoot the SuperClassifier at Colorado Rifle Club on May 10th too. Get in 6 classifiers, and you can even shoot more than one division if you want.

Thanks. I'm scheduled for the safety class with Whistling Pines but will definitely hit up the ECOUSPSA class before I shoot with them. I went an observed the last match to get a feel for how the indoor sessions run. Good people at Whistling Pines!

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You are adding about 1 ounce with grip tape and steel sights as well. For the G19, you can be 25.7 ounces. (http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php) which is 2 over factory listed weight of 23.7 ounces. Just weigh the whole gun if you want to know.

You only have to take the class from one of the section clubs, not each one. :)

Edited by MarkCO

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Just a reminder, if your PPQ is the M2 version, its not legal in Production...

It is the M2. The production list does not specify models: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php . IPSC lists it as approved specifically as the PPQM2: https://www.ipsc.org/rules/proddiv.php. So, as in the rules clause, if it is not specifically allowed, it is therefore prohibited?

I know it's good in IDPA SSP.......

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You are adding about 1 ounce with grip tape and steel sights as well. For the G19, you can be 25.7 ounces. (http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php) which is 2 over factory listed weight of 23.7 ounces. Just weigh the whole gun if you want to know.

You only have to take the class from one of the section clubs, not each one. :)

A tick under 25 ounces with an empty G17 mag.

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Let me know if you want to go to the super classifier. We can meet in Littleton and I can get us the rest of the way out there.

Will do. I think we've got plans for pre-Mother's day activities but will let you know.

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Just a reminder, if your PPQ is the M2 version, its not legal in Production...

It is the M2. The production list does not specify models: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php . IPSC lists it as approved specifically as the PPQM2: https://www.ipsc.org/rules/proddiv.php. So, as in the rules clause, if it is not specifically allowed, it is therefore prohibited?

I know it's good in IDPA SSP.......

The M2 versions are not on the approved list, neither the 4" or 5". They are not legal for Production.

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That sucks. time for an angry letter to Walther (assuming they have production numbers).

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It doesn't necessarily have to be an angry letter. A guy got the 229 Stainless Elite added just by asking Sig if it was possible for them to do the paperwork.

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I've contacted both Walther customer service and the NROI director regarding the Production list status.

In the mean time, moving for this weekend's class with G19 as my main gun. Man how I hate that grooved G19 trigger shoe though.....looks like I can find the OEM Glock extended mag release, extended slide stop and a smoother trigger shoe all in stock at Ghost, Inc. Fortunately, whether it is, or is not going to be approved is not a determining factor in whether I participate. I've got the luxury of a few guns to play with. The PPQ M2 is a fantastic piece and the one I've been training with since February so I'm a little late in the game to switch, but I've got a longer history with my G19 so, like riding a bike, it'll come right back to me (minus the warmy/fuzzy feelings the great ergonomics and great OEM trigger produce).

Talon grips are inbound. Spent my dry fire practice yesterday working draws with the G19, my Blackhawk CQC holster isn't the smoothest (and neither am I) but it's safe and on-hand.

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Hate to give you the bad news but you are stuck with the factory trigger profile in Production. I used to have a few that I rounded off myself but since it's visible externally then technically it's not a modification that you can make.

However, at the local club matches I seriously doubt that anyone would question that or even the PPQ.

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Hate to give you the bad news but you are stuck with the factory trigger profile in Production. I used to have a few that I rounded off myself but since it's visible externally then technically it's not a modification that you can make.

However, at the local club matches I seriously doubt that anyone would question that or even the PPQ.

I would concur with you if it were the same as going from my M&P FS9mm original hinged trigger to the Apex FSS I installed - totally different profile, but that gun is what I will set up for Limited one day.

- App D4 #21.6 Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.

Based on this, the smooth trigger shoe from a G17/G22 will be fine, no? The groves cause hot spots after a day at the range. When I had a G17 and G22, I much prefered that trigger shoe feel.

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yeah, that looks okay as long as its OEM. I must have misunderstood. I used to modify the trigger safety itself to contour with the rest of the trigger surface which wouldn't fly.

I started USPSA shooting a G19 myself. It served as my EDC for years.

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All OEM! Thanks alma. I originally got the G19 to serve as my concealed carry but have moved to a Springfield XDs 3.3, smaller and slimmer.

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I've contacted both Walther customer service and the NROI director regarding the Production list status.

Walther and NROI director have both responded. For now, not approved for Production.

National Sales director for Walther did say:

We are currently in the process of submitting a few of our guns for approval. The 4” gun we can submit right now. The 5” PPQ doesn’t meet production qualifications yet.

We will send out a press release when these guns are approved, so if you haven’t yet, join the Walther Club on our website and you will get that press release when it is done.

Thanks!

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