Help with DA first shot off draw

[Esther]

I recently switched to a CZ Shadow in Production, and I'm having trouble with the DA first shot off the draw. I get the gun up fairly quickly, but I tend to start working the trigger only once my sights are on target, or only a little bit before (and not far enough), so that I waste a few tenths of a second pressing the trigger straight back after my gun is fully presented. I've tried working on this in dry-fire, but it's not translating to "letting go" enough to break the shot ASAP in live-fire. And when I consciously think about prepping the trigger earlier, my draw becomes less fluid and I start missing my weak hand grip or doing other odd things (probably because I am thinking about breaking down each part of the draw and when to start prepping the trigger, etc., instead of just presenting the gun).

Suggestions?

[rack&roll]

I was having the same problem until I quit "prepping" the trigger on the first DA shot after the draw. I draw, point and pull. If it doesn't feel like a hit, I put another one (SA) on it! Probably not a long-term fix, but it has helped a little.

[Magsz]

Esther,

What were you shooting prior to the switch?

In my mind, nothing should change between platforms or action types in regard to presenting the gun and pressing the trigger. (the 1911 is the one caveat to this at least with VERY light triggers as those are similar to solenoids and kind of an on/off concept rather than a prep and press technique).

The only change comes in the fact that you now have to learn a new "break" point in your rhythm mechanics. Once you learn where the trigger breaks you will get a better feel as to where the sights need to be in your draw stroke, ie where your hands are as well, when you start pressing through the trigger.

I learned to shoot DA at any distance by drawing at half speed and pressing shots INTO a target. Drive the front sight into two inch circles at seven yards. Rinse and repeat. As you feel more comfortable with the motion, increase the speed. Do this in live fire AND dry fire and before you know it, the idea that you're shooting a DA first shot wont even register. It will simply become nothing more than a trigger press, just like the rest.

Basically, use your current draw mechanics but adjust accordingly in regard to where the trigger break point is when your sights are where you WANT them to be. Going at half speed prevents you from trying to "catch" up so to speak which results in a nice old snatch of the trigger.

[Andreas]

On easy targets, simply pull the trigger faster. On hard ones, you'll need a few extra tenths of a second to refine your sight alignment, so put that time toward pulling the trigger.

[Esther]

Magsz - I was shooting a XDM before. I think I never started pressing the trigger until my sights were on target, but because it was such a short, light trigger, it didn't make much of a difference. What do you mean by "pressing shots" into the target? And yes! I find myself trying to "catch up" sometimes which results, as you say, in snatching the trigger.

Thanks!

[Magsz]

Ive found that i have an easier time placing my shots where i want them if imagine myself pushing the front sight into the target. I pick a spot on the target and draw to it while pressing my front sight into that spot.

I fundamentally changed my draw technique as ive "aged" in the sport. When i first started shooting i was taught to explosively thrust the gun to full extension essentially hoping that your sights were centered where ever you wanted to shoot. The second i started shooting smaller, more difficult targets i realized this presentation style was worthless.

I built a better natural index by starting slow and as i mentioned prior, pressing the front sight into the target all the while maintaining visual awareness of it.

In a nutshell, you're picking a spot and guiding the front sight there.

The other method is picking a spot and throwing your sights there hoping you will be in the general vicinity. This is always slower.

Ive always shot Glocks or striker fired guns with fairly long trigger travel so the transition to DA from those platforms was not that big of a leap. I really do believe that once you learn where the trigger breaks in DA, all of your issues will slowly disappear. Keep at it. Lots of dry fire will help provided you follow up at the range with live fire on your two inch circles.

[ChuckS]

Hi Esther,.

Go read the article linked in the post from January 13: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166972&p=1854057

"Fear Not, The Double Action Shot"

Later,

Chuck

[chuck s]

If your shadow has the standard trigger, then I highly advise you to have someone do a complete trigger job on it. The difference in the DA pull on my spo1 shadow and my Mink tuned 75 shadow is night and day. When shooting the mink gun ,I really detect no difference in shooting from the draw in DA vrs SA

[emjei]

Ester ....is your Shadow from the Custom Shop ??

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[rowdyb]

I'm a fan of starting a drill by keeping the gun close to the point of where my hands meet. As the gun comes up I move my visual focal plane from target to front sights. While this is happening I am working my trigger press so the gun goes "bang" just before full extension.

I do this drill at half speed, over and over and over again. That way I'm practicing almost all of what happens when I mount the gun to fire that first DA shot on that kind of platform. I try to do it equally dry and live fire.

I find I build the mechanics better and make it a subconscious act by doing it mostly at half speed so that when the time come to GO then it fluidly happens and the timing is pretty right.

Normally I just push a 6 ot 8" circle out to 7 or 10 yards for this drill.

[eric4069]

Hi Esther,.

Go read the article linked in the post from January 13: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166972&p=1854057

"Fear Not, The Double Action Shot"

Later,

Chuck

Yep, that article has been very helpful to me.

Eric

[Esther]

ChuckS - Thanks for the helpful link (and linked article)!

emjei - Yes it is and Mink did a trigger job on it.

[DoubleL]

For myself, doing Steve Anderson's draw drills really helped. Mark your times and stick to it. Draw to a perfectly aligned sight picture with a fully prepped trigger, do not break the trigger though. Everyone is different though, maybe just pulling straight through would work better for you. Messing around one day with a friends Vaquero really opened my eyes to what it takes to hit stuff with a full pull

The whole not breaking the shot part really was hard to get in my allotted base par times. It was a real eye opener, and I learned how long it REALLY takes me to go from holstered to ready to break a shot. But sure as can be, with practice my base times started to fall. I'm still well within the beginners times but improvement is nice, especially on match day.

Try some drills, mark your times and don't cheat to beat the buzzer. Let the time be what it is and train to shorten the times simple right?

Edited April 22, 2014 by DoubleL

[emjei]

Is there a reason why NOT to break the shot while dry firing ???

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[eric nielsen]

Best thing for me (the Shadow was my first DA/SA gun) was getting a stronger grip in all the fingers not resting on the trigger:

[DoubleL]

A strong grip does help!

Emjei-

The drill I mentioned is from Steve's book. All of his draw drills are to a sight picture only, no trigger break. It didn't make sense to me at first, but after trying it I've realized that the actual shot is the quickest part of the whole draw. It's all the other stuff I am trying to get my times down on it's sort of a mind trick too I think, makes you focus on SEEING rather than squeezing.

Doing drills like that to a sight picture only helped immensely with my draw. I can't fully explain why, but it works for me. YMMV!

[Esther]

DoubleL - I had been doing Steve-type draws getting a sight picture and the trigger prepped without pulling all the way through, but (for me) it ingrained a pause in my pulling through the trigger, and I wasn't prepping it enough, so that in live-fire I would have my sights up, trigger prepped 1/2 to 2/3 of the way, and then snatch through the rest. I'm now experimenting with getting my sights and then pulling the trigger straight through in a single uninterrupted motion. Glad Steve's drill worked for you!

eric nielsen - Thanks and thanks for passing along Ben's drill! I've been working with the COC grippers since the winter. When I started, I could close the 80# a few times with each hand and the 100# not at all. I can now close the 80# easily 15 x 3 sets and the 100# fully a few times with each hand. I know I have a long way to go in increasing strength, though...

[DoubleL]

At least you are aware of what you need to work on that's a leg up on the competition already. I forgot to add what helped along with the dry fire drills for me at least, very very focused and short live fire sessions. I'm fairly sure my live fire routine is what curtailed the pause in my draw stroke at that final stage of prepping the trigger. I'm talking maybe 75 rounds max, two draw drills, very focused. It's worth noting that I've found more results through strengthening my mental visualization and overall mental preparation than anything else.

Again though, each person is different and what may work for some is bad for others. My buddies laugh when I say that I visualize a perfect slo-mo draw probably 200 times a day! Before sleep I see perfect sights. Sounds goofy I know but when I don't have time for dry or live fire well you just have to make do! Experiment and find what makes you learn the best fastest easiest way.

[JeffJ99]

I struggled a bit when I switched from Glock to CZ - with the Glock I would take the slack out and then roll through the trigger and I kept trying to do something similar with the DA - it doesn't work you've got to just roll right through it. I would do a lot of blank wall type dryfire drills and try to make sure that you aren't getting into the trap of pulling the trigger really slowly, I know that if I'm practicing pure trigger control I have to consciously be aware of how fast I'm pulling the trigger and try to do it at match speed.