bobby hated Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It's been a few weeks but I thought I'd share my sob story and rant a bit. I got DQ'd from Western States Single Stack because my 1911 was 43.2oz, which is .2oz over the limit. Needless to say I was livid. They told me I could shoot for no score, but the match was more IDPA than USPSA so I decided to drive home that day. My 1911 is a STI Trojan in .40 (bushing barrel), with an Ed Brown (steel) magwell and beavertail, Dawson sights, SV ambi safety, VZ Alien grips, and a Doug Koenig hammer. These are some of the most common 1911 parts on the market, so I am having trouble understanding the purpose of this 43oz weight limit rule. How the hell does a stock 1911 with the most common add on parts on the market get DQ'd from a major match? What is the purpose of this stupid rule? Having a heavy gun is not an advantage, its a disadvantage, unless you're living the in 1980s. I think we all can agree that in the modern age, having a lighter gun is an advantage, not a heavier gun. That's why people cut up their Limited and Open guns and we run SS rods instead of tungsten like they did in the good ol days. In my view this rule is an idiotic relic of the 1980s when people were stupid enough to think that weight absorbing recoil in a handgun was more of an advantage than increasing transition times with a lighter gun. That a competitor would get DQ'd from a major match for this stupid rule is absolutely ridiculous. In order to make weight I could have: cut up the slide, used a custom lightweight composite grip, used a plastic race magwell and mainspring housing, fluted the barrel... but why the hell do I have to make custom race modifications to a single stack gun that's supposed to be in a "practical" oriented division? Not to toot Rich Wyatt's horn, but that's pretty ridiculous for me to have to cut up a stock gun to make weight for single stack. **** this rule! There should be a lower limit for weight not an upper limit, so the gamers can't come out with a cut up slide and race out their single stack gun the way they do their Limited guns. Yes I will suggest to my area director that he propose doing away with this ancient relic of the 1980s. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm pretty sure the slide cuts are to lighten the weight of just the slide, not the weight of the gun. None of the top Prod guys are running light plastic guns, they're running the heavy steel CZ/Tanfo models now. You can get a kitchen scale for $15 from Amazon and know ahead of time if your gun is legal -- it's one of the most cut-and-dried rules in USPSA, and you really have no one to blame but yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Use lighter magazines, bud. I noticed you neglected to mention what brand was in the gun when they weighed it... I also like all of your bizarro comments about the 1980s and heavy guns as if anyone has reached a consensus on any of this stuff. In addition to the popularity of steel-frame Production guns, I'll point out how many people are switching to steel grips on their Limited and Open guns. In any case, the point is there are plenty of people who would prefer a heavy single stack gun. Simply put, you went to a match without knowing the rules and whether or not they applied to your specific circumstances. That's on you. And what does Rich Wyatt have to do with any of this? Was his daughter at the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry51 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Cuts that are designed to specifically or significantly lighten the slide, such as holes, or slots, are ruled as competitive advantage and prohibited So no, gamers already cannot cut up their slides to race out their single stack guns. That point is mute. The rule is a rule... And we must ALL abide by the rules the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 What kind of guiderod did you have in the gun? As Jones said what magazines did you have in it as well? .2 oz is not very much I'm sure you could have shaved the weight right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I also like how the first post says it's a stock gun, but also how there is all kinds of aftermarket stuff glued to it. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The steel mag well is probably what put you over. My SV needed a different magwell- Aluminum. Magazines also can contribute to weight issues as to it having to fit into the box. Also, some plastic/rubber grips have a steel rod in them that will also add weight to the gun. The rule is the rule. I totally disagree with you about the weight limit. Tungsten guide rods do help manage the muzzle flip. jSteel grips are becoming more popular on Limited and Open guns for a reason of perceived recoil/muzzle management. Lightening the slide in a manner that is visible is against the rule also as it does not conform to the JMB original 1911. Rio Salado has the rep of adhering to the rules. No surprises here. Sorry you got bumped but those are the breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It's been a few weeks but I thought I'd share my sob story and rant a bit. I got DQ'd from Western States Single Stack because my 1911 was 43.2oz, which is .2oz over the limit. Needless to say I was livid. They told me I could shoot for no score, but the match was more IDPA than USPSA so I decided to drive home that day. My 1911 is a STI Trojan in .40 (bushing barrel), with an Ed Brown (steel) magwell and beavertail, Dawson sights, SV ambi safety, VZ Alien grips, and a Doug Koenig hammer. These are some of the most common 1911 parts on the market, so I am having trouble understanding the purpose of this 43oz weight limit rule. How the hell does a stock 1911 with the most common add on parts on the market get DQ'd from a major match? What is the purpose of this stupid rule? Having a heavy gun is not an advantage, its a disadvantage, unless you're living the in 1980s. I think we all can agree that in the modern age, having a lighter gun is an advantage, not a heavier gun. That's why people cut up their Limited and Open guns and we run SS rods instead of tungsten like they did in the good ol days. In my view this rule is an idiotic relic of the 1980s when people were stupid enough to think that weight absorbing recoil in a handgun was more of an advantage than increasing transition times with a lighter gun. That a competitor would get DQ'd from a major match for this stupid rule is absolutely ridiculous. In order to make weight I could have: cut up the slide, used a custom lightweight composite grip, used a plastic race magwell and mainspring housing, fluted the barrel... but why the hell do I have to make custom race modifications to a single stack gun that's supposed to be in a "practical" oriented division? Not to toot Rich Wyatt's horn, but that's pretty ridiculous for me to have to cut up a stock gun to make weight for single stack. **** this rule! There should be a lower limit for weight not an upper limit, so the gamers can't come out with a cut up slide and race out their single stack gun the way they do their Limited guns. Yes I will suggest to my area director that he propose doing away with this ancient relic of the 1980s. What say you? Number 1, you were not "DQ"d from the match. You failed to meet the division requirements at a match with essentially one division. You were moved to Open, or should have been, and in a match not recognizing Open, you don't really compete for anything. The same thing happens at Single Stack nationals. And the same thing happened to some fairly big named competitors at SS Nationals last year. Number 2, Single Stack, by definition, is a classic division. It seems completely pointless to rail against a division equipment requirement calling it "1980s" when it really is meant to go back to... 1911. or slightly there after with the other A1 standards. The *only* stock 1911 would be the one actually issued by the military, IMHO, and you might have an argument. This is the same argument as any other line drawn by any rule. Why 140mm mags for limited? Why have a box for the gun to fit in? Why have 10 rounds in production? Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. Number 4, By your post and the contents, pretty specifically the railing against getting caught by a division requirement, not understanding that you weren't DQ'd for not meeting the division requirements but moved to the open division which was not being recognized for score, and other requirements as to the lightening methodologies that are available to you, you don't understand the rules enough to argue against the division requirements on a whole. I like single stack the way it is. I feel the name of the division does a disservice to the actual intent behind the division, but it is what it is at this point. If you had gone to any other match, you would have had recognition in open, even if you couldn't be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If you were weighed at 43.2 oz it won't take much to get you under the legal limit. I'm shooting a similar setup, albeit a few minor differences that make my gun come in around 41 oz. The biggest weight savings is probably going to be in swapping out the steel MSH/magwell for an aluminum one. On one of my 1911's have an aluminum MSH with an aluminum Techwell magwell. On one of my other guns I have an aluminum S&A msh/magwell that I want to say weighs more than half of what an equivalent S&A in steel weighs. This modification alone would get you under weight. I also run G-10 grips from Larry Davidson that are hogged out on the back when I ordered them. Exactly how much weight savings... can't say but back then I was shooting IDPA with a Trojan in .45acp when the weight limit for CDP was 41 oz so every little bit counted. Granted, a .45acp 1911 will weigh less than one chamberedn in .40, but you can easily put your gun on a diet and lose the extra .2 oz. Sorry to hear you got bumped to Open in a SS match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. So why do people lighten their slides? Why do people compete and do well with plastic guns? Why does rob leatham say it makes no difference in speed or accuracy shooting major vs minor? (Hopefully I'm not totally misremembering this interview) Why do I shoot about the same splits with my .45 as with my 40-minor gun? I think some people *think* a heavier gun is an advantage, but lots of pretty qualified people don't appear to agree. Regarding the rule..... I don't like surprises, so before I shoot a match in a division with a weight limit, I weigh my gun on the same digital scale I use for measuring hops for homebrewing. Edited April 15, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. So why do people lighten their slides? Why do people compete and do well with plastic guns? Why does rob leatham say it makes no difference in speed or accuracy shooting major vs minor? (Hopefully I'm not totally misremembering this interview) Why do I shoot about the same splits with my .45 as with my 40-minor gun? I think some people *think* a heavier gun is an advantage, but lots of pretty qualified people don't appear to agree. Regarding the rule..... I don't like surprises, so before I shoot a match in a division with a weight limit, I weigh my gun on the same digital scale I use for measuring hops for homebrewing. Slide lightning isn't always about the weight of the gun. The weight of the slide matters. If I have a 43 oz gun with an extremely light slide and a 43 oz gun with most of the weight in the slide, it will be two completely different beasts. Why are people so interested in trying to get steel grips for 2011s? Rob is very skilled and an excellent instructor, but physically, he's different than I am. His hands are twice the size of mine. His comments about how he perceives the differences are interesting, but vary based on peoples builds. Truth be told, it's more about perception than anything else anyway, which is kind of what he meant by this. I can't address why your splits are the same except to say that the impulse from 45 is decidedly different than 40, regardless of power factor. 45 is has a "lopie" feel to me, and I would imaging that 40 minor might feel the same way because you are down rating it quite a bit. So - you pick one comment out of the entire post that you might have some points from some reputable shooters disagree to prove what - I shouldn't have used the word "definitely"? How about I qualify this - the weight limit is there so someone can't build a 6 lb gun for which there might be an advantage for them. Edited April 15, 2014 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. So why do people lighten their slides? Why do people compete and do well with plastic guns? Why does rob leatham say it makes no difference in speed or accuracy shooting major vs minor? (Hopefully I'm not totally misremembering this interview) Why do I shoot about the same splits with my .45 as with my 40-minor gun? I think some people *think* a heavier gun is an advantage, but lots of pretty qualified people don't appear to agree. Regarding the rule..... I don't like surprises, so before I shoot a match in a division with a weight limit, I weigh my gun on the same digital scale I use for measuring hops for homebrewing. I didn't realize you were a home brewer. That moves you up a notch in my book. That puts you on notch #1. The rest of your post - as usual - has nothing to do with the thread topic. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. So why do people lighten their slides? Why do people compete and do well with plastic guns? Why does rob leatham say it makes no difference in speed or accuracy shooting major vs minor? (Hopefully I'm not totally misremembering this interview) Why do I shoot about the same splits with my .45 as with my 40-minor gun? I think some people *think* a heavier gun is an advantage, but lots of pretty qualified people don't appear to agree. Regarding the rule..... I don't like surprises, so before I shoot a match in a division with a weight limit, I weigh my gun on the same digital scale I use for measuring hops for homebrewing. Slide lightning isn't always about the weight of the gun. The weight of the slide matters. If I have a 43 oz gun with an extremely light slide and a 43 oz gun with most of the weight in the slide, it will be two completely different beasts. Why are people so interested in trying to get steel grips for 2011s? Rob is very skilled and an excellent instructor, but physically, he's different than I am. His hands are twice the size of mine. His comments about how he perceives the differences are interesting, but vary based on peoples builds. Truth be told, it's more about perception than anything else anyway, which is kind of what he meant by this. I can't address why your splits are the same except to say that the impulse from 45 is decidedly different than 40, regardless of power factor. 45 is has a "lopie" feel to me, and I would imaging that 40 minor might feel the same way because you are down rating it quite a bit. So - you pick one comment out of the entire post that you might have some points from some reputable shooters disagree to prove what - I shouldn't have used the word "definitely"? How about I qualify this - the weight limit is there so someone can't build a 6 lb gun for which there might be an advantage for them. Don't feed the troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. So why do people lighten their slides? Why do people compete and do well with plastic guns? Why does rob leatham say it makes no difference in speed or accuracy shooting major vs minor? (Hopefully I'm not totally misremembering this interview) Why do I shoot about the same splits with my .45 as with my 40-minor gun? I think some people *think* a heavier gun is an advantage, but lots of pretty qualified people don't appear to agree. Regarding the rule..... I don't like surprises, so before I shoot a match in a division with a weight limit, I weigh my gun on the same digital scale I use for measuring hops for homebrewing. The rest of your post - as usual - has nothing to do with the thread topic. Thanks! Totally busted out laughing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Make your arguments but please refrain from talking at people..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 To the OP, if you do some searches on this forum you will see why the 43 ounce limit was adopted. About every two years this comes up, and with all due respect, I am tired of explaining it over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 This is why I went with a Dawson Aluminum magwell. I have about a half ounce to spare. My gun is built on a heavy STI frame and added a rail is going to give another .2 or .3 ounces cushion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 It's not hard at all to pick parts that still make weight. On my 9mm which is heavier by a little because if the barrel being thicker isn't hard to make weight with the right parts. I wanted the bigger Dawson magwell with the steel arched msh and vz grips. For that combo to work I have gone with the aluminum msh(Dawson didn't make it when I it the magwell) or loose the guide rod and go aluminum or gi setup. I went GI to give me more of a cushion. On your setup the magwell is what gets you as that setup is heavy and still smaller than the larger Dawson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) Number 3, Having a heavy gun is an advantage. I shoot far more rounds, on average double, than I do transitions. Having the gun move less in recoil is definitely an advantage and newton pretty much defines the laws in effect here. The heavier the gun, the less it's going to be impacted by the act of an equivalent pf ammunition. So why do people lighten their slides? Why do people compete and do well with plastic guns? Why does rob leatham say it makes no difference in speed or accuracy shooting major vs minor? (Hopefully I'm not totally misremembering this interview) Why do I shoot about the same splits with my .45 as with my 40-minor gun? I think some people *think* a heavier gun is an advantage, but lots of pretty qualified people don't appear to agree. Regarding the rule..... I don't like surprises, so before I shoot a match in a division with a weight limit, I weigh my gun on the same digital scale I use for measuring hops for homebrewing. I didn't realize you were a home brewer. That moves you up a notch in my book. That puts you on notch #1. The rest of your post - as usual - has nothing to do with the thread topic. Thanks! Hey, look, it's my internet stalker. Good to hear from you again. Note that my post was entirely talking about gun weight and the perceived advantages, whereas your post was entirely about me.... So which of us is not posting on the thread topic again? this is kind of a silly thread anyway, so maybe we should hijack it entirely and talk about hop varieties. I seem to be partial to spicy citrusy floral ones, like cascade and amarillo. I know there are others out there to try, I just need a longer winter to get to them all. Edited April 16, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 To the OP, if you do some searches on this forum you will see why the 43 ounce limit was adopted. About every two years this comes up, and with all due respect, I am tired of explaining it over and over. Do you have any particular preferences regarding hop varieties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiestovepipe Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Harden up! Stefan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I don't know about hop varieties, but I had a bottle of Bells Hop Slam last night and it was good! As for the weight rule, seems strange your gun would be over 43 oz with just the usual parts. I have all steel Caspain frame and slide, steel 1-piece mag well/ms housing, full length steel guide rod, .40 cal. barrel ramped barrel, etc. and it weighs in at 40.9 oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I don't know about hop varieties, but I had a bottle of Bells Hop Slam last night and it was good! . It sounds good, although a bit higher gravity than I normally like to drink. They apparently dry-hop with simcoe, which is a pretty burly hop. I've used it for early bittering in IPA's. they don't specify the rest of the hop bill, but rumor says Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Centennial, Glacier, Vanguard, Crystal and Simcoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 You should have arb'ed it... based on the rulebook your are completely within the "43 oz" weight limit if the scale weighed in at 43.2 based on significant figures. The number 43 has 2 significant figures, the number 43.2 has three significant figures, for proper comparison you would have to make both two sig fig numbers, which makes 43.2, 43 The rulebook needs a decimal point or an explanation that the decimal point doesn't matter (like they do with PF calculation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 My question would have been is the scale certified? If so what was the + or - when it was checked with tare weights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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