New USPSA Abandonment Rule

[gose]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

Doesnt make sense to me.

I think I've seen more grounding AD/NDs in 3GN events (including the older shoot offs) than I have in all other 3-gun matches combined and those matches by far outnumber the 3GN ones.

You're talking about people pulling triggers negligently which is different than a gun going off miraculously when they are sitting still.

I've seen both, the latter only in a 3GN shoot off.

So what made the firearm fire with nobody present? Did it fall? Did the trigger get hooked on a piss poor dump container? Was the safety on only it was faulty?

What would solve the problem of firearms going off Unattended or when being abandoned? Match DQ? Jail time? Go back to the old school multigun where we shoot one gun per stage?

The point Im trying to make is no matter what the penalty for abandoning an unsafe gun it won't reduce the number of them. It's an accident when they are abandoned unsafe.

Unless you make it such a harsh penalty that everyone triple checks every gun before they ditch it.

And your point is flawed. If the penalty for abandoning an unsafe firearm is harsh enough, people will triple check and not do it, alas the number of them will go down.

Saying that the penalty has no bearing on the number of incidents is directly opposed to what I have observed, so I dont buy that for a second.

No matter which option is chosen, it will be the same for everyone, so why not go with the safer option? It's not like grounding a safe weapon is really going to hurt some people more than others, is it?

Edited April 18, 2014 by gose

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

Doesnt make sense to me.

I think I've seen more grounding AD/NDs in 3GN events (including the older shoot offs) than I have in all other 3-gun matches combined and those matches by far outnumber the 3GN ones.

You're talking about people pulling triggers negligently which is different than a gun going off miraculously when they are sitting still.

I've seen both, the latter only in a 3GN shoot off.

So what made the firearm fire with nobody present? Did it fall? Did the trigger get hooked on a piss poor dump container? Was the safety on only it was faulty?

What would solve the problem of firearms going off Unattended or when being abandoned? Match DQ? Jail time? Go back to the old school multigun where we shoot one gun per stage?

The point Im trying to make is no matter what the penalty for abandoning an unsafe gun it won't reduce the number of them. It's an accident when they are abandoned unsafe.

Unless you make it such a harsh penalty that everyone triple checks every gun before they ditch it.

And your point is flawed. If the penalty for abandoning an unsafe firearm is harsh enough, people will triple check and not do it, alas the number of them will go down.

Saying that the penalty has no bearing on the number of incidents is directly opposed to what I have observed, so I dont buy that for a second.

No matter which option is chosen, it will be the same for everyone, so why not go with the safer option? It's not like grounding a safe weapon is really going to hurt some people more than others, is it?

So would you advocate making a stricter penalty to reduce the accidental unsafe gun completely? We have several unsafe guns ditched every match. Edited April 18, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Bryan 45]

Accidental and negligent are two different things. It's a negligent unsafe gun if the competitor throws it in a bucket and the safety gets knocked off as it's bouncing around. If the competitor remains in control of the gun until it's at rest, there I no way for the safety to be disengaged.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Accidental and negligent are two different things. It's a negligent unsafe gun if the competitor throws it in a bucket and the safety gets knocked off as it's bouncing around. If the competitor remains in control of the gun until it's at rest, there I no way for the safety to be disengaged.

I agree with that Bryan but what about the guy that sets his rifle or pistol flat on a table pointed down range and nudges it ever so slightly as he lifts his hand causing the safety to come off. I know you've seen that happen at least once. Nobody never goes up range of the gun so nobody's in danger. Why DQ that shooter in that situation? I just don't think it fits every possible scenario I've scene. I guess it all comes down to a case by case basis where the RM and MD have to setup their match with appropriate dump containers or tables and live with the Risks and pains of sending somebody home for a mistake.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[TonyH]

Okay i'll throw this out there. What about when AD's happen while RO's are unloading a previous ditched safe weapon, for the sake of saving time. Seen it happen 3 different times at 3 different matches over the years.

[MarkCO]

Okay i'll throw this out there. What about when AD's happen while RO's are unloading a previous ditched safe weapon, for the sake of saving time. Seen it happen 3 different times at 3 different matches over the years.

If I do not know the CRO on a stage, I will not agree to let ROs clear my weapon. Getting shot in the back by an inexperienced RO would ruin my match! I hope you talked to the MD/RM with the utmost haste and intensity. I had a loaded .45 pointed at me by an RO clearing a pistol at a match. The MD did not invite him back.

[outerlimits]

Okay i'll throw this out there. What about when AD's happen while RO's are unloading a previous ditched safe weapon, for the sake of saving time. Seen it happen 3 different times at 3 different matches over the years.

Cant be on the shooter-but i think i'd sh$t myself if i heard a shotgun go off behind me.

[LoganbillJ]

If guns are being cleared behind the shooter they need to stay in the same orientation they were dumped in. We do it at local matches all the time. But all guns are cleared, muzzle down, still in the barrel they were dumped in and only experienced shooters/ROs clear them. I would agree some people have no business clearing them behind the shooter. Also guns are only cleared if the safety is visibly on or gun is locked to the rear. If safety is off and bolt closed, the gun stays put until the shooter clears it.

Edited April 24, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[Jakobi]

Clearing guns when people are down range is tomfoolery that I won't tolerate. I'd be packing up my stuff and leaving and wouldn't be caught at another one of that MD's matches.

-Jake

[gose]

Okay i'll throw this out there. What about when AD's happen while RO's are unloading a previous ditched safe weapon, for the sake of saving time. Seen it happen 3 different times at 3 different matches over the years.

Cant be on the shooter-but i think i'd sh$t myself if i heard a shotgun go off behind me.

Let me tell you this, it's still nothing like walking a stage when you hear the beep and realize one second later that it wasnt just someone testing the timer...

[Vlad]

Let me throw a curve ball here. When we are ok with dumping most safetyless loaded striker fire guns as they are because "the safey is on", does anyone ever bother to check that the trigger safety actually works?

Over the years I've seen a number of glocks where the trigger safety was there for looks alone.

Personally, having just recently been DQ'ed for leaving a loaded striker gun in a bunker when the stage called for an EMPTY abandoment, I'm strangly ok whatever you want to do. I'm ok with requireing empty dumps or DQ, I'm ok with "safety on" dumps or DQ, but I'm not sure I really approve of the 30sec penalty.

Ask yourself this, why are we penalizing the shooter? Was it because he didn't follow stage procedure or because we deem the move unsafe? If it is a stage procedure issue, then design better stages because otherwise it is a chickenshit rule. If it is a safety rule, then we don't make exceptions, we DQ people.

[openclassterror]

A similar example of disparate levels of penalty for mistakes is the AD rules I often see. If an AD strikes the ground within 10 ft of the shooter, or goes over the berm ( or another unsafe direction) it is a MATCH DQ. If it occurs in a "safe location" it is often only a stage DQ. As far as I'm concerned, if the gun goes of without deliberate intent at a target, I DON'T WANT YOU SHOOTING AROUND ME!!!!!!!! Either your gun handling, or your gun's mechanical condition is unsafe. I DON'T CARE WHERE THE BULLET GOES! The next time you do something stupid, it might NOT be pointed in a safe direction. The difference is this-

First Rule Of Gun Safety- Always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction ( Also stated, Do not point your firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy)

Also, from my kids' hunter safety classes- "A safety is a mechanical device that can and will fail".

If the shooter is allowed to run around all over the place with the gun off-safe, he is deemed safe because the firearm is pointed in a safe direction the whole time (IE, 180 rule). The only reason the safety must be applied when the firearm is abandoned is because he is no longer in direct control of said firearm. If it is abandoned in a safe direction (not endangering the shooter or the RO as they continue the course of fire, and not pointed back at the spectators) then it does not pose an imminent safety risk just because the safety is off. Effectively the huge penalty is equivalent to a stage DQ, (a gross procedural, but which was interpreted not to put anyone at immediate risk). I personally am more worried about the 180 violations than the safety engagement, purely because if RULE #1 is followed (safe direction), it does not matter if the safety is on or not, I WON'T GET SHOT!