New USPSA Abandonment Rule

[StealthyBlagga]

In preparing to shoot the USPSA MultiGun Nationals, I see that the 2014 Provisional MultiGun Rules have reduced the penalty for "non-compliant" abandonment from a match DQ to an enhanced procedural penalty:

4.2.14 Abandoning a loaded firearm in the retention device with safety off will result in a procedural penalty of

30 seconds in time plus scoring or 3 procedurals in traditional Comstock scoring.

This is the so-called "JJ Rule" after JJ Johnson, MD of Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, who pioneered this approach.

If the “retention device” is properly designed (i.e. muzzle down barrel/bin secured in place), then I am not necessarily opposed to this rule change; I readily acknowledge that a properly functioning modern firearm is not inherently unsafe if abandoned with the safety off (provided nobody is handling it), and that a gun abandoned with no ammo but an empty magazine is completely inert. However, I am opposed to this rule change in the case of less robust abandonment locations (e.g. tables, 3GN trays etc.) where the likelihood of the firearm falling out is significant - I would have preferred to see this spelled out in the rules.

My real concern would be the erosion of redundancy. Right now we have redundant safety rules in that the gun is supposed to be abandoned muzzle down in a secure receptacle, on-safe or completely unloaded. If the gun is securely abandoned in the receptacle off-safe/loaded, then the risk and severity of an AD is very small. If the gun falls out of the receptacle on-safe/unloaded, then the risk and severity of an AD is also very small. However, if there is a perfect storm of unsafety – the gun is abandoned off-safe/loaded AND falls out of the receptacle, then the risk and severity of an AD is substantially elevated (especially with the light triggers that are ubiquitous in our sport).

To put this in a context we can perhaps more readily understand, consider the well-established USPSA handgun safety rules covering muzzle direction (10.5.2) and finger in trigger guard (10.5.10). If a shooter breaks the 180 and muzzle sweeps the crowd of spectators, but his finger is outside the trigger guard, then the chance of a person getting shot is very small. Alternatively, if a shooter leaves his finger inside the trigger guard, but keeps the muzzle pointing downrange into the berm, then the chance of a person getting shot is also very small. However, if both infractions happen concurrently - the shooter breaks the 180 AND has his finger in the trigger guard - then the risk of a bad outcome increases exponentially. This need for redundancy is rightly at the core of our continuing adherence to these cardinal rules, and why each remains a match DQ offense.

To quantify the risk, the RM for SMM3G looked back at the DQs from this year's match. Out of 351 competitors at SMM3G-2014, there were less than 6 competitors who abandoned a weapon that had a round in the chamber and the safety was not applied. Furthermore, he could only recall one example of an abandoned gun falling out of the abandonment receptacle (he guestimated a probability of about 1-in-33,000 shooter stages - an agreeably low probability). With the USPSA rule change already in place, it will be interesting to see how often non-compliant abandonment happens (i.e. will the reduced penalty increase the frequency of such infractions). I hope USPSA will be tracking the number of these enhanced procedurals that are issued, and make a determination on whether the frequency has increased over previous years. When we come to reviewing IMA-SMM3G rules later this year, we hope to learn from the USPSA experience in this area. If any other MDs/RMs have QUANTITATIVE before-and-after data, I'd be interested to see it.

Personally, I see this rules change as a welcome opportunity to reduce the number of competitor match DQs without significantly increasing risk of an injury-accident. However, if competitors start to see this as a license to get sloppy with abandonment, then I think we should be ready to reverse the rule under the "This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things" maxim.

Edited April 13, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[ericm]

What is USPSA's definition of "unloaded"?

Does it include unloaded in the chamber with an empty detachable magazine inserted?

This is where SMM3G, RM3G, and USPSA need to go....

empty is empty, and just as in the case of tube shotguns, an empty mag is.......empty.

ericm

[StealthyBlagga]

What is USPSA's definition of "unloaded"?

Does it include unloaded in the chamber with an empty detachable magazine inserted?

This is where SMM3G, RM3G, and USPSA need to go....

empty is empty, and just as in the case of tube shotguns, an empty mag is.......empty.

ericm

Yeah, the SMM3G team has already started this discussion - it is a separate issue that will get serious reconsideration before SMM3G 2015.

Edited April 13, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[ericm]

....so USPSA doesn't include that definition(mag in)in the unloaded definitions?

Just curious.

ericm

[Rookie]

My interpretation of the current USPSA ruleset is that empty means that there is

• No round in the chamber and
• No round in an attached magazine

There is no suggestion in the ruleset indicating that a magazine is considered "ammunition". Furthermore... there is no reference to "live" rounds. I recall reading in this forum that some unfortunate person or persons have been given a DQ for having a "spent" round on the carrier (no other live ammo in the weapon or magazine).

Edited April 13, 2014 by Rookie

[Benelli Chick]

At RM3G empty means no ammo in the gun. IF there is a magazine seated in the gun with ammo, then it is not empty!

Also, the wastepaper basket for pistol, with a block in the uprange side (keeps the muzzle pointing into the ground) works very nicely. Our abandonment says muzzle down in the appropriate receptacle. A pistol, even a giant Open pistol with scope CANNOT fall out of the wastepaper basket! It could feasibly bounce out of the wastepaper basket in which case it would have been abandoned unsafely irregardless of the condition of any external safeties an be a DQ.

We have been using the "JJ Rule" since 2008, and have issued maybe one or two "gun not abandoned with safety applied" procedurals each year. 30 seconds is almost worse for the top guys. Because, they're still in the game, but have to overcome a huge penalty! They can't say, "I was winning until I got DQ'd!"

Also, our abandonment receptacles are smooth and vertical and contain nothing that can knock off a safety. We also try very hard to have NO ONE BUT THE SHOOTER, clear guns on the stage. That way no one can say an RO messed up his gun or changed the condition of his safety!

Make your abandonment barrels/buckets contain the gun muzzle down. Just empty rubbermaid trashcans for longguns. That way there is no way parts or mags or anything else can get caught on anything, there's nothing but barrel!!

I think the USPSA rule is a good step forward!

Denise

[ericm]

You are correct Denise, I forgot RM3G already does this!!!! (i.e. empty mag in gun is OK)

A couple years ago, standing over the pistol abandonment Wastepaper Basket, one shot in the gun, 40 yard c-zone, the sweetest thing was hearing "HIT!" and putting my empty locked-back pistol in the bucket in one smooth motion......

OK,OK: Surprised, jerky and contorted motion.....ah, the memory fades......

ericm

[kampr]

What is USPSA's definition of "unloaded"?

Does it include unloaded in the chamber with an empty detachable magazine inserted?

This is where SMM3G, RM3G, and USPSA need to go....

empty is empty, and just as in the case of tube shotguns, an empty mag is.......empty.

ericm

From;

2014 Rifle, Shotgun and MG Rules, Combined - Effective February 1, 2014

3.3.6.1 An abandoned firearm must be in applicable ready condition (see Section [3.1]) or empty with no ammunition anywhere in the firearm.

5.3.15 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. A loaded firearm is

defined as having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

Common sense prevails!! An empty gun is empty!

[High Lord Gomer]

At our local 3-gun matches we position dump boxes such that the guns are still pointed slightly downrange and mostly toward the side berm. We don't allow anyone other than the shooter and the ROs past the abandoned weapon until the 3rd RO has verified that the gun was left in a safe condition and has also completely emptied it. Waiting for the shooter to come back and clear each gun would take extra time that we don't have.

I'm not too sure how I feel about the change and will have to discuss with the guys if we will be running our local matches that way.

[Religious Shooter]

Wow. Guess I'm going to start using my 2011 again.

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

[dcloudy777]

Good. Guns are "safe" because of the direction the muzzle is pointing and the absence of manipulation, not a mechanical device.

[gose]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

Doesnt make sense to me.

I think I've seen more grounding AD/NDs in 3GN events (including the older shoot offs) than I have in all other 3-gun matches combined and those matches by far outnumber the 3GN ones.

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

Doesnt make sense to me.

I think I've seen more grounding AD/NDs in 3GN events (including the older shoot offs) than I have in all other 3-gun matches combined and those matches by far outnumber the 3GN ones.

You're talking about people pulling triggers negligently which is different than a gun going off miraculously when they are sitting still.

[MarkCO]

But Jesse, I saw a shotgun fire at Blue Ridge in the 3GN shoot-off after the shooter was 2 steps away. I saw a rifle ring around a dump barrel, effectively sweeping 20+ people at Superstition. These were both top 5 shooters in those matches. But where is the common denominator? We have a LOT of new shooters, new to competition folks coming into the sport. Is it really the time to remove a layer of safety? Once you are no longer in control of a weapon, can you actually "obey" the 4 laws of gun safety? No!

When there is only one action/device to prevent catastrophe, guess what, it WILL happen eventually. I work on cases of death and dismemberment on a regular basis and it is exceedingly clear that a double control is significantly better at prevention of unwanted events than a single control.

If you can not properly safe a weapon, you should be DONE from the match. To allow otherwise is to buy liability as an organization and an event for the actions of a person who has demonstrated a lack of safety. Fault tree analysis and hazard analysis is a huge part of my expertise, and frankly, some people who are making some of these decisions do not have the skill or training to make the decisions they are making.

Can't go prone with a loaded, and RO checked safe pistol in a holster, but you don't safely dump a weapon and you get only a penalty...

Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but I would be remiss not to point out what, to me, is obvious.

Edited April 17, 2014 by MarkCO

[Jesse Tischauser]

But Jesse, I saw a shotgun fire at Blue Ridge in the 3GN shoot-off after the shooter was 2 steps away. I saw a rifle ring around a dump barrel, effectively sweeping 20+ people at Superstition. These were both top 5 shooters in those matches. But where is the common denominator? We have a LOT of new shooters, new to competition folks coming into the sport. Is it really the time to remove a layer of safety? Once you are no longer in control of a weapon, can you actually "obey" the 4 laws of gun safety? No!

When there is only one action/device to prevent catastrophe, guess what, it WILL happen eventually. I work on cases of death and dismemberment on a regular basis and it is exceedingly clear that a double control is significantly better at prevention of unwanted events than a single control.

If you can not properly safe a weapon, you should be DONE from the match. To allow otherwise is to buy liability as an organization and an event for the actions of a person who has demonstrated a lack of safety. Fault tree analysis and hazard analysis is a huge part of my expertise, and frankly, some people who are making some of these decisions do not have the skill or training to make the decisions they are making.

Can't go prone with a loaded, and RO checked safe pistol in a holster, but you don't safely dump a weapon and you get only a penalty...

Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but I would be remiss not to point out what, to me, is obvious.

Are you suggesting people only use their safety's because they don't want to get DQ'd? Why would anyone intentionally leave the safety off if they would incur a 30 second penalty?

What happens frequently is the safety gets nicked off from the dump container and shooter gets punished for it with a DQ when a 30 second penalty does the same thing.

If the shotgun went off when the shooter was 2 steps away the ND would warrant a DQ not leaving the safety off. Who's to say the dump container didn't deactivate the safety and fire the gun?

Maybe we should only allow brisk walking at matches cause somebody could fall when running and accidentally ND.

You can never be too safe but there is a line each of us is comfortable operating at. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree that your line is way different than mine.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

What happens frequently is the safety gets nicked off from the dump container and shooter gets punished for it with a DQ when a 30 second penalty does the same thing.

Has that happened to you? It has not happened to me. I have actually seen two on-safe guns go into receptacles and the safety move from on to off, but it is not "frequent" by any stretch of the imagination. In those cases, the safety had been modified to make it have a less "positive" engagement.

[Jesse Tischauser]

What happens frequently is the safety gets nicked off from the dump container and shooter gets punished for it with a DQ when a 30 second penalty does the same thing.

Has that happened to you? It has not happened to me. I have actually seen two on-safe guns go into receptacles and the safety move from on to off, but it is not "frequent" by any stretch of the imagination. In those cases, the safety had been modified to make it have a less "positive" engagement.

Never happened to me yet but it happened to a shooter last weekend in The pro series. The RO saw and heard the safety go on but when the rifle was retrieved it was off safety. I see it happen on 2011 pistols most frequently. Didn't a match saver lose a shell to the open Empty chamber at fhn last year resulting In a DQ? Personally I don't think those shooters should get DQ'd. A penalty hurts their order of finish a lot but they still get to participate and not waste an entire $1000 trip to a major. Edited April 17, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

Didn't a match saver lose a shell to the open Emory chamber at fhn last year resulting In a DQ?

Yes, and I felt bad for the competitor, but there was ammo in the gun and I would not recommend any difference in the rules. You handle the guns, YOU make them safe...end of story. I worked two fatalities last year where people got shot by guns that had been placed on "safe".

[Jesse Tischauser]

Didn't a match saver lose a shell to the open Emory chamber at fhn last year resulting In a DQ?

Yes, and I felt bad for the competitor, but there was ammo in the gun and I would not recommend any difference in the rules. You handle the guns, YOU make them safe...end of story. I worked two fatalities last year where people got shot by guns that had been placed on "safe".

So even if they are on safe it's still not safe? Wait these aren't examples from matches are they?

How does a DQ make them any safer or teach any better of a lesson than a penalty that negates a good finish. Why don't we ban them from the match did ten years or life? That would make them learn to safely ditch their gun!

Or are you more concerned about liability if a gun was ditched off safe, went off and killed someone accidentally. Would having a rule in a rule book reduce the matches exposure?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

When making safety rules, specific cases should be looked at, but the overall goal should be layers of safety. When a layer is removed, accidentally or intentionally, there must still be at least one layer left. There should also be a layer that can be verified by the safety official. Reliance on the 4 laws of gun safety is a different safety umbrella and should not be relied upon as the only layer in this context.

To be quite frank, I would be less concerned about you (specifically) breaking the 180 (which is a match DQ) than you dumping a gun (or two halves of a shotgun as the case may be). But, no one is suggesting that 180 violations should be stage DQs. I am pretty sure I could prove that improper dumping of a gun has a significantly higher chance of a round being fired resulting in injury than breaking the 180.

Edited April 17, 2014 by MarkCO

[gose]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

Doesnt make sense to me.

I think I've seen more grounding AD/NDs in 3GN events (including the older shoot offs) than I have in all other 3-gun matches combined and those matches by far outnumber the 3GN ones.

You're talking about people pulling triggers negligently which is different than a gun going off miraculously when they are sitting still.

I've seen both, the latter only in a 3GN shoot off.

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 gun nation has a 20 or 30 second penalty for a unsafe abandoned gun as well. Makes sense to me. Make the dump container safe and the gun won't shoot itself once its set down.

Doesnt make sense to me.

I think I've seen more grounding AD/NDs in 3GN events (including the older shoot offs) than I have in all other 3-gun matches combined and those matches by far outnumber the 3GN ones.

You're talking about people pulling triggers negligently which is different than a gun going off miraculously when they are sitting still.

I've seen both, the latter only in a 3GN shoot off.

So what made the firearm fire with nobody present? Did it fall? Did the trigger get hooked on a piss poor dump container? Was the safety on only it was faulty?

What would solve the problem of firearms going off Unattended or when being abandoned? Match DQ? Jail time? Go back to the old school multigun where we shoot one gun per stage?

The point Im trying to make is no matter what the penalty for abandoning an unsafe gun it won't reduce the number of them. It's an accident when they are abandoned unsafe.

Unless you make it such a harsh penalty that everyone triple checks every gun before they ditch it.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[StealthyBlagga]

The point Im trying to make is no matter what the penalty for abandoning an unsafe gun it won't reduce the number of them. It's an accident when they are abandoned unsafe.

I have not seen data to support your assertion, and I would personally prefer to see some before changing IMA-SMM3G rules. Hopefully the frequency of such "non-compliant" abandonments will not increase with more lenient treatment, but that remains to be seen.

Edited April 18, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[Bryan 45]

I agree with Mark. If an unsafe gun is a match dq, the competitor will take the time to make sure it is grounded on safe, and In a safe enough manner to maintain the condition of the gun. If it's simply a penalty, competitors are more likely to take chances in grounding guns harder/faster/more recklessly and risk the safety getting bumped off by the container.

And if a competitor isn't willing to take the extra .25 seconds to be in control of the weapon until it's at a complete rest, they deserve to not finish the match if the safety gets placed back in the FIRE position by the grounding receptacle.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Bryan 45