RIIID Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 What did the provisional SS rules state for barrel and slide length? Does anyone have them saved some place? Gary Stevens? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 As Flex would always state, that is John's opinion/interpretation of the rules, that doesn't make the Rule until the BOD says it is. Rich Except in this case it would appear to be an actual BOD approved rule. From the SS Appendix -- D5: 7--Maximum size Handgun and all magazines: Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938” x 6” x 1.625”) (227.01mm x 152.40mm x 41.28mm) And that's exactly what John's saying -- if it fits in the box, it's good to go.....But no one on the BOD probably realized what fit the box could mean for SS Div. when written and now that it has been brought up they might want to clarify it.Rich Look what happened with Production Div. when some assumed the rules were clear and concise. There was a box for the Provisional SS rules too...... 20. A handgun in its ready condition (See Section 8.1), but unloaded and with an empty magazine inserted, must fit wholly within the confines of a box which has internal dimensions of 225mm x 150mm x 45mm (tolerance of +1mm, -0mm). Note that all magazines must comply, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply. Note that the 2 mm length difference is equivalent to less .1 inch. Since the very beginning it's been "as long as it fits the box, it's good to go......" What took you guys so long to figure this out? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have not been asked my opinion in any official manner, but my gut feeling is if it fits in the box it is good to go. If I am asked, I will state that I feel the slide should remain at 5 inches. Can anyone tell me what the great attraction to having a 5.4 inch barrel over a 5 inch barrel? Since all calibers shot in USPSA Single Stack Division easily make power factor, what is the attraction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Longer sight radius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have not been asked my opinion in any official manner, but my gut feeling is if it fits in the box it is good to go. If I am asked, I will state that I feel the slide should remain at 5 inches. Can anyone tell me what the great attraction to having a 5.4 inch barrel over a 5 inch barrel? Since all calibers shot in USPSA Single Stack Division easily make power factor, what is the attraction? Being cool... Having something just a bit different, hell it could just be the equipment edge I need to stop holding me back.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 If the sight is attached to the slide, or is it, how does that make it longer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Theres a pic on page 1, the slide is 5.4 inches - or are we talking about something different now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Missed the picture, sorry. Quiet a bit to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I know we need an official determination on whether or not the slide is legal, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate otherwise. In Prod I can shoot a 34, a 17, a 19, or a 26 but the barrel must match the slide. I know the shorter guns in SS are allowed to have shorter slides despite not being the original JMB design. If a commander or officer is "based" on the original design why would a 5.4 not be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Lets put this whiz bang idea in perspective for a minute and ask the question "Does it really matter?" I just looked up a 5 inch 1911 sight radius and found on Wilson Combat's website they list their "Classic" as 6.9 inches sight radius - http://wilsoncombat.com/new/handgun-classic.asp Just using them as an example, I realize other 5 inch guns with other sights will be slightly different. So 6.9 inches of sight radius improved by another 0.4 inches would make a 7.3 inch sight radius... 0.4 / 6.9 = .0579 = 5.79% less error in your sight pictures assuming you're shooting perfect sight pictures So that of course does not equate to 5% increase in performance or even a just 5% increase in accuracy given all the other factors involved in shooting However this is measureably "better" for one small aspect of shooting, and better is better, even if you can't completely quantify it Knowing that and having measured the advantage - now what to do about it? If I had a gun that already met my accuracy requirements then I wouldn't change, but if I was getting a new single stack gun for whatever reason...then, maybe. Best case scenario (unrealistic as it may be): So let's say that everything else is figured out perfectly for accuracy with your 1911 and you're shooting 2 inch groups from a rest at 25 yards. And then for the sake of argument, let's say that you actually magically got a direct 5% increase in accuracy from this longer sight radius. Switch to this gun and your regular 2 inch group just went to a 1.90 inch group? Good, but does that matter? I'd say probably not much in USPSA. Or you could put the money that you'd spend on a new gun, and time that you'd spend figuring it out, and the money / time for developing its perfect load, gunsmithing, whatever else... Into training, classes, more ammo, match fees, or something else that will help your shooting with the gun you already have that's already probably more accurate than you'll ever be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amish_rabbi Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) in my case, I dont have a full gun built for SS/Classic, just ones I have modified. I decided its time for a fully custom built gun so 5.4" vs 5" doesnt cost me anything extra, I get a longer sight radius, maybe slightly less powder in the case (maybe), and a different recoil pulse than a 5" gun, and some weight even farther out from the pivot point. Also, no one else I shoot with has one Edited May 8, 2014 by amish_rabbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) So 6.9 inches of sight radius improved by another 0.4 inches would make a 7.3 inch sight radius... 0.4 / 6.9 = .0579 = 5.79% less error in your sight pictures assuming you're shooting perfect sight pictures Ken, You're looking at it wrong. If you're shooting perfect sight pictures then sight radius is not important as all groups would be the same. If the gun is capable of shooting a 1.5" group at 25 yards and you shoot perfect sight pictures you will always achieve a 1.5" group, it doesn't matter if your sight radius is 1" or 20". What more sight radius does is give you less error when your sight picture is not perfect. Assume a sight alignment error of .10" low (half the height of a typical 1911 front sight) when the shot breaks. If your sight radius is 6.9" the bullet is off by .10" for every 6.9" traveled. With a 6.9" sight radius your shot will be 4.35" below your point of aim at 25 yards. With a sight radius of 7.3" inches it would be low by 4.11", 0.24" less. It seems like a very little difference but consider if your target is an 8" plate at 25 yards. 4.35" low misses the plate but 4.11" low catches the bottom edge of it. A minor, yet measurable difference. Or look at it this way, how many hits on paper have you had that just missed the higher scoring ring? Your 5.79% increase in accuracy (really a decrease in error) means that for the same sight picture every hit that was 3/4 of a bullet diameter away or less would have scored the higher zone. Edited May 8, 2014 by T Bacus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B45C22 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 You are both looking at it wrong. If you have a 5.4" SS gun, you are 105% cooler than those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 You are both looking at it wrong. If you have a 5.4" SS gun, you are 105% cooler than those who don't. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Fair enough on error distribution & how it plays out shooting but given that this is probably a reasonably expensive custom 1911, we're not talking about a $100 choice. We're talking about thousands towards one or the other and that much more ammo / practice / training for most shooters if going to benefit their game overall a whole lot more than 0.4 inches of sight radius. Not saying its not "better", because it is. If even by a little bit, it is measureably better - but what to do with that info? If I already had a gun that met my accuracy requirements, I'd spend that money on myself. If I was getting a new single stack gun (for whatever reason) then I'd probably get the one with more competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have not been asked my opinion in any official manner, but my gut feeling is if it fits in the box it is good to go. If I am asked, I will state that I feel the slide should remain at 5 inches. Can anyone tell me what the great attraction to having a 5.4 inch barrel over a 5 inch barrel? Since all calibers shot in USPSA Single Stack Division easily make power factor, what is the attraction? It's cool!! Or Different!!! Or new!! Gosh Gary, why are you gonna bring sense into this discussion. Buzzkiller..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 You are both looking at it wrong. If you have a 5.4" SS gun, you are 105% cooler than those who don't. This is the actual truth and reason to do it. What else could possibly be as important?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The answer on the slide length would be the same as barrel length, if it fits in the box-----.--------------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Yeah after some thought, I am leaning that way also. I designed the box to be the limiting factor (along with some other small restrictions) for guns. It makes it much easier to officiate. It seems the 5.4 was a well thought out design that was intended to fit in the box and make weight (I guess) from the start. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) I see it as, if 5" was the defacto max length, why have a box at all? Kind of redundant. Now Blade-tech & Comptac will have to make holsters for 5.4" slides, Dawson will have to make new front sight heights to zero these guns, etc. When will the madness end? Lol. Edited May 9, 2014 by OPENB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 IPSC and USPA have diffrent rules in single stack. In ipsc as long as the gun fits in the box it's good to go plus you can use bull barrels with tungsten sleeves. ipsc is more lax when it comes to single stacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B45C22 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 When will the madness end? Lol. Ha ha he thinks it might end...... In the words of the eagles, "welcome to (USPSA), you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave" The equipment race in shooting will end at exactly the same time that they stop making new golf clubs and new baseball bats. Neva! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 IPSC classic (single stack) division guns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) IPSC classic(single stack) division guns with tungsten sleeved barrels Edited May 9, 2014 by bonglee0507 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Not saying its not "better", because it is. If even by a little bit, it is measureably better - but what to do with that info? If I already had a gun that met my accuracy requirements, I'd spend that money on myself. Agreed. It's not an advantage you can use, but it is there, waiting to help you every once in a wile. And again, it has nothing to do with your accuracy requirements. Adding length to the sight radius does not make your gun more accurate. It makes your mistakes just a little bit less of a mistake. Every once in a wile it will make what would have been a C hit an A hit. A just missed plate becomes a hit plate. That hit that just touched the no-shoot will miss the no-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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