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Open or Production?

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My 15 yr old son finally decided to start shooting ipsc. Im not sure if i should let him shoot open div or production. Im asking about those two division coz i have both guns available for him to start with. Need some pros and cons on this... Does it really matter what gun they start with? Thanks in advance.

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Shoot Production and Open in USPSA and without a doubt I DO NOT RECOMMEND OPEN FOR A BEGINNER. Everything happens much faster in Open. Sure you can shoot faster but you have to shoot much faster to just maintain. It is very humbling and hard to do well. Just make up a hit factor for a classifer and put it in to classifier calc in Production and then in Open. The difference in percentage is staggering!

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Open.

Lots of things to remember when you're first starting out and shooting open simplifies at least mag changes. Its one less thing to think about/mess up.

Its also easier to call their shots with a dot and its much easier to see any issues with flinching/jerking/trigger control issues.

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Production without a doubt. The equipment limitations of the division make you focus on the fundamentals such as reloads, sight alignment, accuracy, etc. With an Open gun you can just hose and if you miss just mash the trigger to make up shots and you most likely still have a bunch of bullets in that 170mm mag. If not you can have a bunch of 140mm mags on your belt stuffed with 21+ rounds each. Production is a great place to learn the fundamentals. Equipment has less of an impact since the playing field is pretty level.

To suceed in Open you have to be FAST. Hits can be shitty somewhat so long as you're fast and shooting major PF scores will be decent. Even a miss won't kill you if you're fast enough. With Production shitty hits will kill your score due to the Minor PF. After years of shooting Limited and a little Production I still cant shoot Open scores equal to my best iron sighted scores.....

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Production without a doubt. The equipment limitations of the division make you focus on the fundamentals such as reloads, sight alignment, accuracy, etc. With an Open gun you can just hose and if you miss just mash the trigger to make up shots and you most likely still have a bunch of bullets in that 170mm mag. If not you can have a bunch of 140mm mags on your belt stuffed with 21+ rounds each. Production is a great place to learn the fundamentals. Equipment has less of an impact since the playing field is pretty level.

To suceed in Open you have to be FAST. Hits can be shitty somewhat so long as you're fast and shooting major PF scores will be decent. Even a miss won't kill you if you're fast enough. With Production shitty hits will kill your score due to the Minor PF. After years of shooting Limited and a little Production I still cant shoot Open scores equal to my best iron sighted scores.....

So, is a Mike scored differently with Minor PF???

Shooting Mikes in every division is not good. To be at the top in all divisions, you have to be fast and accurate.... that is a whole different topic....

OP,

Let your son pick what he likes. Some people actually like reloads and Minor PF scoring. Some people like to just go fast. Either way, it will be time you get to spend together.

I get frustrated hearing people talk about how different the divisions are. They are more alike, than they are different. All the fundamentals apply to all divisions. Grip, trigger, aiming, stance, footwork, draw, reload, etc...

In my opinion, pick the one he can shoot more ammo through. More is better.

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Let your son pick what he likes. Some people actually like reloads and Minor PF scoring. Some people like to just go fast. Either way, it will be time you get to spend together.

I get frustrated hearing people talk about how different the divisions are. They are more alike, than they are different. All the fundamentals apply to all divisions. Grip, trigger, aiming, stance, footwork, draw, reload, etc...

In my opinion, pick the one he can shoot more ammo through. More is better.

I love it!

If he wasn't dying to shoot the Open gun we wouldn't be having this conversation right?

So I guess the real question is for you: what causes you to hesitate to let him shoot Open?

If you're worried about safety, I suggest you stay home and work on safety; a gun is a gun and no one wants to get shot; Minor or Major. But I don't suspect it's safety you're worried about. Are you afraid he won't burn down the stage with the Masters? because he won't in either division. Maybe that your peers will disapprove?

Personally I really enjoy shooting Open and I have seen a lot of important fundamentals start to click since picking it up; I'm calling shots much better and shooting on the move. In the beginning I thought shooting Production would make me better because it would 'force' me to reload and would punish poor stage planning; I frequently tanked stages and would frequently drive home frustrated. Now I drive home with a smile more often :)

Edited by kneelingatlas

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Safety is always a concern for me, but the kid is responsible and always practices safe gun handling... It's a concern but not an issue.

I also agree with you that when i went from iron sights to dot... A lot of the fundamentals started clicking for me. So i decided to stick with open. Now looking back i wonder if shooting open improved my fundamentals or did my fundamentals improved coz of the time i spent in that particular division?

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i wonder if shooting open improved my fundamentals or did my fundamentals improved coz of the time i spent in that particular division?

Both right?

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Shoot Production and Open in USPSA and without a doubt I DO NOT RECOMMEND OPEN FOR A BEGINNER. Everything happens much faster in Open. Sure you can shoot faster but you have to shoot much faster to just maintain. It is very humbling and hard to do well. Just make up a hit factor for a classifer and put it in to classifier calc in Production and then in Open. The difference in percentage is staggering!

I agree with Sarge, but I would add one. A major part of this sport is stage (COF) breakdown. Production forces you to learn how to shoot a stage with optimun results. You learn the fundamentals in production and you have learned it for all Divisions. Open is all about combining all the skills and going FAST. You would not put your son in 4 second dragster without starting in a 15 sec grocery getter. If you understand drag racing you would understand my analogy.

Production guns are easier to maintain.

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Production. Period.

Production will give him a stable platform to build upon once he gets going in the sport and wants to move on to other things. It will make him do a ton of reloads, shoot accurately and train him to plan stages. Once he gets good in production, he can slide to any other division and swim with confidence.

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I asked a similar question when I was first starting out (Limited or Production) and the opinions were split just like they were here. There are pros and cons to each, so I would default to agree with CB45, whatever gun he can shoot more often, cause more rounds downrange is always a good thing.

Pros for Production:

Good hits are paramount. Shooting alphas is more important than being blazing fast.

Reload practice. Lots of it.

Level playing field (for the most part).

Stage breakdown.

Pros for Open:

Speed is king. Does he like going fast? I don't remember which pro three gunner said it but basically, "I hate when people say go slow and get your hits, the speed will come. Go as fast as you can and the accuracy will come."

Fewer reloads means more focused on the shooting.

Works on fundamentals, you can shot call a lot easier with a dot.

I guess the decision comes down to which of these pros he wants or needs to work on.

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I would let him shoot production, so that he is learning to shoot with iron sights.

If he is doing this well, let him decide later if he wants to go elswhere.

1. Mostly all handguns have iron sights, everywhere in any situations, I would prefer to have those skills.

2. It is easy to switch from iron sights do a red dot, but it is pretty hard to go the other way.

Edited by jayjay1

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Let him shoot what he wants. It's supposed to be fun, right? I remember seeing a 12 year old kid shooting open at my first match. He was having a ball and it never really seemed to hold him back. Although, he was already a GM at the time ;)

Later,

Chuck

PS: Besides, like Atlas says: the kid obviously wants to shoot open, right? :roflol:

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Production so he learns how to shoot sights.

I know 100's of people who cannot shoot iron sights on a rifle becasue they started with scopes

Also the noise of an open gun may be very uncomfortable to a new shooter. Most people have more problems with the noise than the actual recoil to the hand. I suggest you double plug him either way you go but especially if you choose open

good fortune and tell him we are glad he has joined the ranks !!!!

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I like Production but have seen one or two teens start with an open gun using minor level ammo, that looks like fun if the gun will run with it.

Eric

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I always laugh when I read a comparison about open vs production and people say that the difference is that you have to go fast in open but do other things well to be good in production. If you shoot Production you know that you need to go fast to succeed in Production as well ... Ever see a Production super squad shooter shoot? If you have you know that speed is critical. Not saying speed isn't critical in open but once you get out of the local level you must be really fast in Production as well if you expect to keep up ...

You obviously get to trade some accuracy for speed in open due to the major PF scoring but in the end no matter what division you shoot you need to be able to soot accuractly at speed to succeed ...

Having said all that I would start him out in Production since a nice open div race gun could mask some fundamental shooting issues ...

Edited by Nimitz

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If he is physically able to handle the Open gun (some are fairly heavy) let him at it. Production guns tend to be lighter especially with 1/3 as many cartridges in them. I'm sure he'll try Production too. Then there's the fact that if you force the issue he may not be as enthusiastic and listen to you much at all.

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I think folks need to be more precise about what they mean when they say Open is "faster" The only things argueably that are faster in open will be target aquisition, splits and transitions. Speed in every other aspect should be the same in either division. Production does not teach better stage planning. It teaches stage planning for 10 round mags. Stage planning in Open is just as important only different. Production places more importance on accuracy than Open does due to minor scoring. It is easier to hit small steel and partials with a dot. Those are the differences I see. I shoot both divisions and each simply present slightly different challenges.

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And this is why i love this sport... Someone is always willing to take time out of their busy schedule to help out their fellow shooters, Awesome!

I am still undecided coz y'all have good valid insight to how the game is played. So, I am going to let my son read the comments on this thread and take him to the range this weekend with both guns and let him decide which direction he wants to go. No matter which division he chooses... it is still +1 uspsa shooter! Thnx a bunch everyone and DVC! Be safe and always shoot alpha alpha!?

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Be safe and always shoot alpha alpha!

NOOOO, YOU WON´T!!!

:surprise:

Would you.... :unsure:

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take him to the range this weekend with both guns and let him decide

Excellent choice! :)

Letting him choose is best overall but I would steer him towards production.

I think it is a much better way to learn the fundamentals: trigger control, accuracy, reloading, stage planning, etc. It's also cheaper to get into in most cases so it would be easy to buy a Production gun of his own to customize.

I Open is fun but I prefer the challenge that Production presents.

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Open.

Young folks have short attention spans. Set the hook deep before he realizes it. Open still requires use the fundamentals and will allow him to concentrate more on safety rather than a sight picture and reloading every time his feet are moving.

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One more suggestion. If wants to try irons start him off in Limited Minor. For people learning how to utilize iron sights at speed only having 10 rounds in the gun can be very frustrating. Think target arrays with small steel as last targets. Loading the mags to capacity will keep it more fun even though he will be at a points disadvantage using minor scoring.

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