WHERE IS ALL THE POWDER

[zhuk]

Well Hodgdon are only rebranded ADI powders, as has been noted. Yes allegedly there was some kind of a fire which (rather strangely) halted production of AP70 only (Universal to you) but the more conspiracy-minded shooters down here reckon that selling it off to the US market instead of to us locals made a whole lot more business sense

I'm down to my last 500g (cost:$50) which means it might just last until the Nationals in June...or else I gotta do a whole new load workup with whatever other powder I can find

[B45C22]

I can assure you that they are not selling it off to the US markets. We don't have any either.

[zhuk]

Thanks for the clarification on that B45C22...been wondering that for a long time. Seems weird that only one powder line would be affected, but it must be true!

[Sarge]

I'm getting totally discussed with this. Heck, this is America. Once you make up your mind that your going to do something, like I did about 6 months ago with reloading, you do it. This issue of powder is ridiculous.

I bought 1 pound of Accurate 5 when I first got my re loader back in November. It was a lot of fun to reload and shoot, but I haven't seen anymore. I did by some IMR PB a few times, and have enough to last for a couple of months. It feeds great and seems to work well, but if you use the published loads in 9mm it won't even cycle my XDM 5.25. I've worked up to about 3.7gr, which is way over max, and it still wont quite make minimum power factor. I love the powder, but that max load thing has me a little worried.

I've placed back orders for Accurate No 5 and Solo 1000, but I have no idea if these will ever come in. When I placed the order they said they had back orders that had been on the books for almost a year.

I would really appreciate any insight on how to get the stuff. I assume someone is getting it, and I'm just not doing it right. If not, then I guess there are a lot of guys out there that ordered big back when when it was available, and they're going to be disappointed when they start shopping around.

I have read some explanations about supply chain, and how some shortages far up the chain can hold things up. I work in manufacturing, and understand how companies wouldn't want to spend a bunch of cash to set up production that will last a while and then fade away when everything settles down. I get all that, but I would still like some independent verification on what's going on, because nobody ive read seems to have any facts. I can tell you when my company doesn't supply our customers with good quality product on time, the customers will be crawling all over our facility demanding to know what's going on, and exactly what we are going to do to fix it. And let me tell you, changes are made real fast.

Who's getting the powder? Why don't I ever see pistol powder for sale on line? How long does this have to go on until the manufacturers do something about it. Perhaps the management of USPSA could look into this. I would assume they carry some weight, and could get answers. USPSA is an association, and association represent their members. I work in an ISO rated manufacturing facility, and there are lot's of consultants you can hire that will figure out exactly where the problem is. Just take them to the manufacturers and ask them what's going on? What's their plan to fix the problem? And whether or not they are dedicated to providing supplies to our sport? If they start dancing around the questions, let the consultants push them a little. At some point there should be enough information to write an in depth report on the subject.

I don't think its some big conspiracy. It's just that there is a demand, and the customers should know what the manufacturers are doing to meet the demand. Yes it may be a few nuts out there buying everything up, but they're building awesome ranges where I live, and more and more people are taking classes and shooting in matches in large numbers. I would think that the sport is growing.. And we need supplies.

If a vendor would commit themselves to meeting the needs of competitive shooters they would have many loyal customers.

Sorry for the rant. I've been wanting to get that one off my chest for a long time. Tell me where I'm wrong. I usually am.

This components thing is nuts. It's hard enough to work all day, have time with the family, reload and practice enough to have fun and improve. Then throw in having to scrounge for powder. It's pretty frustrating.

There must be a way to have a steady supply, but I just haven't found it. I really don't hear that much about it in these forums. I would appreciate any help. Thanks.

Myself I found a local gunbuilder that sells reloading supplies. He's got a good relationship with his distributors. At first it was you couldn't get primers, but now primers are available everywhere.

Now the problem is powder. My guy told me he was talking to his distributor the other day. He's been in the business for over 40yrs and has never seen it so bad. He says it looks like it's going to get worse.

Just4FunLP - do you ever make it down to the Tampa Bay area? I can ask what he's got. I don't think he has any Titegroup any more cuz last time I saw him about 3 weeks ago a buddy and me bought his last 2 8lb jugs of TG. I do have a couple of 1lb jars of TG. To help a fellow floridian, I can let you have one of them if you ever are in the area.

I think I found out why. I was told by a family friend who works in"northern Va", that the UN ban on imports may be a huge part of the problem. Many of the powders we use come from Europe, VV, a lot of ramshot, ( I like silhouette) and many others marketed by American companies are actually made in other countries. The ban drastically cut the amount allowed into the U.S. I'm not sure this is true, but I wouldn't put it past the people running this country.

Yeah, it must be the politicians fault. Horse manure. It's people's fault for stocking up on years worth of components. I've never seen a community as paranoid as the gun owning community. Everybody is out to get you! Poor, poor group.

Look in the freakin' mirror. You are the problem. Vow to go two months without a single purchase and they will be begging you to buy something.

I haven't bought powder in two years, let alone two months! Nobody has contacted me asking me to buy more. I'm getting nervous though as I am down to 35 pounds of my favorite powder.

[The Donald]

What gets me id all the black powder substitutes are available as is the 50 BG powder. But the stuff everyone buys is none existent. I wish someone would start a new powder company even if only a few popular types of powder. If someone made it available even if limiting a person to say 4-8 lbs at a time, would you go back to Hodgen etc if they get their act together?

[Guest]

Question: Is it possible to make major with black powder (or substitute?) or 50 cal powders?

I'm thinking I might be able to do that....once.

(OK, that was a total joke....don't try that at home!)

I was checking PV and when I clicked on my favorite powder's banner for a split second I thought I saw "IN STOCK" and actually felt an adrenalin rush. Turned out it was just the header for the in-stock column.

It reminded me of how it must be to cross a desert and see an oasis in the distance only to find out it is a mirage.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Bamboo

[Croomrider]

Question: Is it possible to make major with black powder (or substitute?) or 50 cal powders?

I'm thinking I might be able to do that....once.

(OK, that was a total joke....don't try that at home!)

You will never get enough of either one in a pistol case to even come close to making major!

Mike

[joedirt]

Question: Is it possible to make major with black powder (or substitute?) or 50 cal powders?

I'm thinking I might be able to do that....once.

(OK, that was a total joke....don't try that at home!)

You will never get enough of either one in a pistol case to even come close to making major!

Mike

yeah, but I bet I would be real soft

[gm iprod]

Jam the case full of flash powder (4F) and it will work. Just maybe not for the second shot, if there is a second shot.

[gm iprod]

As far as starting a new powder company. Who is going to make your powder for you?

The old gag is, how do you make a small fortune in ten years in the powder industry, start with a large fortune.

All the plants that currently make powder, and there is less every decade, are currently running at over capacity. They can not get enough powder out the door fast enough. World Wide production of propellant powders for civilian use has doubled in the last 10 years, as best I can find info out. St Marks is running at full power, IMR is . ADI in Australia were running at over capacity until the had an ooops late last year or early this year. Now they are a little behind schedule on a few items.

Everybody else is going all out.

To build a new plant will take a bunch of money and 2, 3 or 4 years before they see results and product in usable quantities. No one right now (with the money) is prepared to stump up that money for what is still seen as a short term over demand. Remember this problem has actually existed for 3 or 4 years and that is short term to these people.

ATK (Lake City) increased production from 400 Million rounds (2000) to 1.6 BILLION (2012) that means they are using 4 times the powder they were 12 years ago. That means unless production at the powder plant increased by that same 4 times, then there is less powder for us. Seeing as I believe powder production has doubled in the US in that same period, we are still short some. They get their powder from St Marks (General Dynamics) which also makes most if not all of Hodgdons Ball Powder, all the Winchester, most of the Ramshot, plus a big bunch of powders for other powder companies that make ammunition, especially 22lr ammo. IMR have contracts to ATK, Thales (ADI Powders) in Australia have contracts to ATK, and others, plus what they make for use at the Australian Military Arsenal. Plus ATK owns Alliant / Hercules. They make more money out of selling ammo than selling the powder inside the ammo to us.

[Service Desk]

Well Hodgdon are only rebranded ADI powders, as has been noted. Yes allegedly there was some kind of a fire which (rather strangely) halted production of AP70 only (Universal to you) but the more conspiracy-minded shooters down here reckon that selling it off to the US market instead of to us locals made a whole lot more business sense

I'm down to my last 500g (cost:$50) which means it might just last until the Nationals in June...or else I gotta do a whole new load workup with whatever other powder I can find

Try some Power Pistol or VV330..... Both work OK in 9mm with lead boolits.

[Knp1288]

Can't get VV from any places that I've called (all up and down East Coast Australia).

[DougCarden]

I truly wonder how many shipping containers are sitting full at a dock, with paperwork snafus keeping them from being emptied.........

DougC

[gm iprod]

All Vihtavouri that comes to NZ is via the US, as no one can afford to through the money at 18 Ton of the stuff and pay $30K to ship it from Finland to here, then store what they don't sell within the first 7 days. Other than that all is fine.

[Shadowrider]

As far as starting a new powder company. Who is going to make your powder for you?

The old gag is, how do you make a small fortune in ten years in the powder industry, start with a large fortune.

All the plants that currently make powder, and there is less every decade, are currently running at over capacity. They can not get enough powder out the door fast enough. World Wide production of propellant powders for civilian use has doubled in the last 10 years, as best I can find info out. St Marks is running at full power, IMR is . ADI in Australia were running at over capacity until the had an ooops late last year or early this year. Now they are a little behind schedule on a few items.

Everybody else is going all out.

To build a new plant will take a bunch of money and 2, 3 or 4 years before they see results and product in usable quantities. No one right now (with the money) is prepared to stump up that money for what is still seen as a short term over demand. Remember this problem has actually existed for 3 or 4 years and that is short term to these people.

ATK (Lake City) increased production from 400 Million rounds (2000) to 1.6 BILLION (2012) that means they are using 4 times the powder they were 12 years ago. That means unless production at the powder plant increased by that same 4 times, then there is less powder for us. Seeing as I believe powder production has doubled in the US in that same period, we are still short some. They get their powder from St Marks (General Dynamics) which also makes most if not all of Hodgdons Ball Powder, all the Winchester, most of the Ramshot, plus a big bunch of powders for other powder companies that make ammunition, especially 22lr ammo. IMR have contracts to ATK, Thales (ADI Powders) in Australia have contracts to ATK, and others, plus what they make for use at the Australian Military Arsenal. Plus ATK owns Alliant / Hercules. They make more money out of selling ammo than selling the powder inside the ammo to us.

This is what I've been thinking for some time. With the increase in ammunition sales over the last few years, the powder, and for a while primers, are all going to the ammunition makers. Add in the military using a crap ton of ammunition over the last 10+ years, add in the same for a bunch of our allied countries, and what we have is a perfect storm.

Also with having a background in manufacturing myself I can just about guarantee you that the powder manufacturers are only running the powders to support the most common calibers that the ammunition manufacturers are making and selling at such a brisk pace. It's just what they have to do in an attempt to keep up. Where I might just maybe have a differing opinion is where you say it's a temporary situation. I think it might be the new norm and increased manufacturing capacity is sorely needed. I'd love to be wrong and I'm not totally convinced on that since primers and loaded ammunition for some lower demand calibers are slowly starting to show back up. This premise would help to explain the utter lack of .22LR in the system too but it's starting to trickle in from time to time too, so maybe we are "seeing light at the end of the tunnel"?

[ghost21]

I truly wonder how many shipping containers are sitting full at a dock, with paperwork snafus keeping them from being emptied.........

DougC

My thought exactly !

[jayhkr]

I was truly lucky today. Stopped by Cabela's before I went out fishing this morning. Stood in line with a bunch of other guys before they opened and most if not all of them were looking for .22's. I needed worms, but decided to see if they had ANY type of pistol powder. Went to the little area, looked on the top shelf....nothing....middle shelf....nothing......bottom shelf were filled with red dot.....blue dot.....and UNIQUE!!! 8# keg thank you very much! Scooped it up and did a dance. The older guys shopping the .22's just laughed and I got an applaud too! I had enough Cabela's cash to foot 3/4 of that bill so it was a WIN/WIN situation. What a way to start my vacation!!!

[zhuk]

Can't get VV from any places that I've called (all up and down East Coast Australia).

Nope can't say I've ever seen any personally either, might see if I can find the Alliant. Honestly might just be better to go with AP50 which is what most people who used to use AP70 seem to be doing (well while is lasts lol)

[Shadowrider]

I truly wonder how many shipping containers are sitting full at a dock, with paperwork snafus keeping them from being emptied.........

DougC

Seems to be something to this. Check out Powder Valley's facebook page for details. The good news is it may be getting resolved shortly.

[RDA]

I truly wonder how many shipping containers are sitting full at a dock, with paperwork snafus keeping them from being emptied.........

DougC

Seems to be something to this. Check out Powder Valley's facebook page for details. The good news is it may be getting resolved shortly.

Possibly, but PV's facebook page is alluding to them being stuck at the outgoing port (Australia), not the incoming port (US).

[Guest]

Yep, PV's facebook page has a couple of recent posts about this subject - one from Sierra Bullets and the other an opinion from PV's perspective.

Both are interesting and give some insight from people in the business on the current powder market situation.

[B45C22]

I can see the ammo manufacturers ramping up production when all of the shelves are empty and people are buying loaded ammo like crazy, but where I shop anyway, the shelves are full of everything except .22. If you believe that that ammo manufacturers are using up all of the supply to make ammo, then you have to also believe that the loaded ammo that they are making is going to the government (at some level). Not saying that isn't the case. I believe it is, but you would also have to believe that at some point they will have enough. They can't be firing all of the rounds that they are buying and still shoot as bad as the representatives that I see are shooting.

[Logisticsnightmare]

I just started reloading 3 weeks ago. Bought my 550, got all the required accessories (scale, caliper, etc) then started buying components. Got 1k of brass, 2k of primers, different bullet sample packs and then started looking for powder. Could not find it ANYWHERE.

Called local ranges and local ammo manufacturer, tried to call in a few favors from friends who reload. No luck what so ever. If someone had any extra they were holding on to it. One day on my way to work I stopped by a local range who makes their own ammo to see what they had. Rifle powder only but their shipment would be there later that afternoon. Next day I stopped by and sure enough they had 2#'s each of Unique, Bullseye, and 3-4 lbs of Red Dot and Blue dot. I snatched up the unique and bullseye fast and was very happy that I could start reloading.

[gose]

There must be a way to have a steady supply, but I just haven't found it. I really don't hear that much about it in these forums. I would appreciate any help. Thanks.

Back order from a few different places, if the shipments come in too close, sell the extra locally.

Make sure you have a good stash on hand. Even before the craze I made sure to always have at least a year's worth of components stashed. That should give you ample time to restock.

[Grump]

 

We are part of the problem, me included. Buying powders that we don't need out of fear that it will be our only chance to secure some. [snip]

 

Speak for yourself and your local area and what you can backorder because you have more time to sit on the internet using search 'bots to find and click on something before 25 other people behind you get shut out.

There are enough of us who use *and "stockile"* a heck of a lot less than what you and RDA in Ohio report getting your diligent and fortunate mitts on, to be the large number of exceptions that doesn't "prove the rule" but demolishes it.

I have bought TWO, count 'em, TWO pounds of pistol powder in the last six months solely on the very correct idea that it would probably be at least a month before ANYTHING showed up again on the LGS shelves. Not the powders I was looking for either time, but I am very, very glad I made those two very modest purchases when I did. Half the time, the powder(s, sometimes it literally is only one bottle or a few bottles of one type like BMG) on the LGS shelves are not suitable, or perhaps only barely suitable, for the caliber I intend to load.

So for some areas, you got it completely wrong. The stuff is not even arriving to be hoarded up. And a carton of 8, 1-lb jugs of 700-X that showed up six weeks ago really did last five days before it was all gone. Being as how it was the ONLY CHOICE for pistol powders I had seen in five weeks, I bought one, for exactly the reason you try to discredit as the cause of the shortage. Or perhaps the continuation of the shortage.

Locally, ammo is all calibers except all rimfires is plentiful and is NOT flying off the shelves.

Some of us prefer to not buy online any more, either, taking more "pressure" off of the total powder market. Not everyone plays the backorder game.