DQing a New Shooter...What would you do?

[Sarge]

Sadly I DQ'ed 4 shooters at a recent level 2 match. Thank goodness they were all blatant violations that nobody could really argue about. One was a new shooter who I think was either on his last stage of the match or very close to it. When I stopped and cleared him he smiled and said, "I almost made it through my first big match". He knew exactly what he did, after he did it. I'm sure he will shoot again.

[ben b.]

DQ'ing 4 shooters would ruin my fun-day.

[TGO]

It's not about USPSA's or any other groups rule book. It's about safety. If someone doesn't know or care or worse, can't follow SAFE RANGE PROCEDURE, they need to for the safety of all others at range be disqualified and not allowed to further compete in that event. It's the cool off period and punishment of not being able to continue that drives home the need to improve ones skills.

If a shooter, new or old isn't thick skinned enough to overcome the indignity and embarrassment of being dq'd and subsequently does not return, that's a good thing!! I speak from first hand experience, and at a very high level and recently. To this day the being DQ'd is not the worst part of my experience. It is the memory of the gun pointing at me and everyone else on the range as it cartwheeled to the ground. I think being DQ'd was getting off easy. It still gives me chills. And it should. I did come back and try it again.... but, "Hi I'm Rob, I'm a DQholic" Being unsafe oughta be a big deal.

[frag316]

Rob, I've been DQ'd twice. My first time, I was an inexperienced shooter, and I disagreed with the call but didn't argue with the RO--it was his call to make. Looking back, it was a call that could have gone either way. Hindsight and experience as an RO makes me understand why he made it.

My second time was last year. I dropped a gun on a stage at PASA (club match), trying to clear a jam. I still see the gun flipping thru the air and pointing at me with the safety off as it struck the ground. The guy who DQ'd me is someone I regularly shoot with. We looked at each other and I just said, "You want to pick that up so I can clear it?" I knew I was done, and for a good reason. I spent the rest of that day ROing for the other shooters in my squad.

It really IS about safety. Anyone who thinks differently needs to re-read the rules.

[Luv2rideWV]

I consider myself new because I've only shot USPSA for a year or two. We are blessed that new shooters have been grown at our little club where we attempt to follow USPSA rules with the aid of a seasoned USPSA competitor, and we hope to become a USPSA affiliate soon. What started as two people traveling to shoot USPSA in another county has turned into a group that sometimes numbers 10 to 15, and our club now has 30+ members. The replies and the original post are very relevant to situations we have.

I think the RO's decision should stand if based upon the rules and if the rules were fairly applied. That said, I want to know where people learn the rules. I say the new shooter learns from us. Lots of shooters in our area shoot by themselves or with buddies in uncontrolled venues; when new shooters come to us, we brief them, often demonstrating what we're talking about; beyond the briefing, new shooters often need schooled during a match because some rules aren't second nature yet. As long as we make every attempt to maintain safety, I say the majority of shooters should learn at the club level matches. We need to grow and develop new shooters. If we correct them, do so in a plain and matter of fact manner. Don't berate or attack new shooters - teach them.

One time I observed a brand new RO who, I feel, could damage the sport more than help it. He very correctly corrected a new shooter for starting to make ready before instructed; however, he should have issued the DQ or should have corrected the shooter; instead, this RO proceeded to repeatedly politely rant how he could have disqualified him. This RO proceeded to rudely correct an experienced shooter who didn't reset a pop-up target to his liking. This RO twice was rude to a young lady who was collecting brass or picking up magazines for the last shooter - after the all clear was given - when she wasn't in anyone's way. The RO even about walked into me on one stage as I bent over to pick up some brass; all I saw was boots/shoes when it happened; I don't have eyes on top of my head. We all helped paste targets and set steel. Why go out of your way to have someone treat you poorly?

I would also like to brag that we have some guys who really do want to learn, love the sport, want to help, and perform quite well. We are growing shooters. Therefore, I say we should teach and develop our new shooters. If you DQ someone, do it and tell them why and don't be mean about it. If you don't DQ someone, correct them, but don't be an ass about it.

[HoboBrasser]

Everyone hates to see a shooter DQ. I feel bad for the shooter if I am the RO. No lesson is learned if you don't make the call. I would have a private discussion with the MD and the outcome would determine if I would ever RO for him again. We used to have an RM who could be counted on to reverse my decisions-I don't think he liked me. I tried not to work a major where he was RM.

[gardan01]

It's not about USPSA's or any other groups rule book. It's about safety. If someone doesn't know or care or worse, can't follow SAFE RANGE PROCEDURE, they need to for the safety of all others at range be disqualified and not allowed to further compete in that event. It's the cool off period and punishment of not being able to continue that drives home the need to improve ones skills.

If a shooter, new or old isn't thick skinned enough to overcome the indignity and embarrassment of being dq'd and subsequently does not return, that's a good thing!! I speak from first hand experience, and at a very high level and recently. To this day the being DQ'd is not the worst part of my experience. It is the memory of the gun pointing at me and everyone else on the range as it cartwheeled to the ground. I think being DQ'd was getting off easy. It still gives me chills. And it should. I did come back and try it again.... but, "Hi I'm Rob, I'm a DQholic" Being unsafe oughta be a big deal.

[Kyle7735]

I understand rules are rules and all that jazz. Of course we all understand how arbitrary and unnecessary some rules and laws are.

However. From a non rules based viewpoint.

How unsafe is it to drop a gun that was just cleared under the supervision of an RO, and how unsafe is it to pick up a just confirmed empty firearm?

Other than the Firearm Safety rule of "Guns are always loaded" that we violate everytime we do dry fire practice. I dont understand how this was actually an unsafe act.

[ben b.]

Other than the Firearm Safety rule of "Guns are always loaded" that we violate everytime we do dry fire practice. I dont understand how this was actually an unsafe act.

It is unsafe practice to drop a gun, and a rules violation resulting in a DQ (back to the rules).

Another decent, pertinent question is: How bad is it to get a DQ for unsafe gun handling at a match? How much harm does that cause?

No harm in my view. (Hurt feelings don't count) If the DQ results in future behavior that avoids future acts of unsafe gun handling, it is a benefit. And that is what is intended.

In absolute terms, the act of dropping an empty gun is about as dangerous as dropping a standard claw hammer, which is not very dangerous. The practice of dropping guns and then quickly picking them up to avoid detection is unsafe. And so we have safety rules against that sort of thing.

I DQ'd Saturday, for unsafe gun handling. My off-hand index finger hit the trigger as I was dismounting my off-hand from the pistol while pulling back from around a tight corner, and I had an ND into the deck. I had only 4 shots left for the entire match, and it was a good match for me. Oh well. I did it.

Edited May 28, 2014 by ben b.

[Nghthwk1911]

"The guy who DQ'd me is someone I regularly shoot with."

Was you, not anyone else, unless someone else dropped your gun during the stage.

I think this is the problem, Shooters See RO's as bad guys, and when we as RO's have to make the safety call, and send them home because they can't follow the rules of safety, shooters tend to think it is because the "RO DQ'ed me". And that just is not the case.

Just saying.

[Nghthwk1911]

As we attempt to bring new shooters into the sport we have a ability to proved guidance for them under 8.6.1, but where do we cut this off? A shooter is running around finger on the trigger during reloads, movement, clearing jams... How many times? How many different RO's? Before they put one over a berm or into someone?

8.6.1 is a rule that allows for unsafe actions to be conducted with no limit. Instead maybe we should stop them if we think they are close, have a discussion high lighting the issue with them, have them re-load the mags, and come back to line at the end of the squad... No more warring's after that, you get one that the RO was not 100% on, and then after that it is all on the shooter.

I shoot at a lot of clubs that have "low" berms and communities very close by, and if one goes over the chances of someone off the range getting hurt is just to high.

Just the ammo cost will correct this.

All RO's need to be watching the gun when running a shooter, not because we are looking for a reason, but because we are confirming that that was not a reason to stop them. Let the other RO watch for foot faults, or if the steel fell or props that fall before being engaged.

[sperman]

8.6.1 is a rule that allows for unsafe actions to be conducted with no limit. Instead maybe we should stop them if we think they are close, have a discussion high lighting the issue with them, have them re-load the mags, and come back to line at the end of the squad... No more warring's after that, you get one that the RO was not 100% on, and then after that it is all on the shooter.

8.6.1 doesn't allow you to give a shooter a pass on a DQ.

[Nghthwk1911]

Scott,

I am not saying that it does, I am saying that it gives RO's a pass on applying a DQ when most wont do it because that is there buddy, or a "New" shooter. I am saying that 8.6.1 is not used the right way and that it is written poorly with no limits on how is should be applied.