Would you say anything to a shooter that has his gun in the holster wi

[Sandbagger123]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

Would you remind him of his error, or let things be, and have him suffer the consequences.

[ChuckS]

DQ per 10.5.11.1

[B_Seehawer]

New guy at a club match?

I'd inform him of the rule.

Sectional/Area match, buh bye. You know better.

[ac4wordplay]

DQ per 10.5.11.1

This ^

[ClintDismore]

I worry that I will do this which is why I visually check that my safety is one and then physically hold it in place as I holster. Seems like a crappy way to end a match

[sperman]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

Would you remind him of his error, or let things be, and have him suffer the consequences.

Ideally you would stop the shooter before they get the gun in the holster, but once it's in there, it is a DQ. The "consequences" are potentially life threatening, so they don't get a free pass.

[Graham Smith]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

I'm going to put you on the hot seat here. If you were the RO, shouldn't you have noticed that the gun was not on safe when the shooter went to holster it?

[MrVvrroomm]

DQ. He'll never do it again.

[Sarge]

DQ

[Sandbagger123]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

I'm going to put you on the hot seat here. If you were the RO, shouldn't you have noticed that the gun was not on safe when the shooter went to holster it?

Was not me, but i have noticed this a couple of times where the RO reminded a new shooter that his gun needs to be on safe, and allowed him to do so after a lecture of the rules. I know they should have went home.

[cohland]

What Division has the shooter entered?

I believe (but cannot find the rules reference) that a Production shooter, using a gun with an external hammer, must have the hammer down, but the external safety does not need to be engaged. The best examples I can think of are the CZ Shadow and the Beretta 92FS.

I think 8.1.2.3 covers this, making it clear that the hammer must be down, but no mention is made of the external safety being engaged. Is that correct?

I've seen other threads that chased this around, too.

Chris

Edited March 14, 2014 by cohland

[Poppa Bear]

Paired together it answers that question.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down,

or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety

engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

[Tiny Warrior]

New guy at a club match?

I'd inform him of the rule.

Sectional/Area match, buh bye. You know better.

^ this.

Especially if its both a new guy & a club match. I've seen it done & I don't think it's totally wrong.

[Poppa Bear]

So to answer the OP's question. Once the hand leaves the butt of the gun 10.5.11 comes into play. If the gun has the hammer cocked then it is an immediate DQ if it is readied for the COF without having the safety engaged.

Most shooters apply the safety as soon as they load a round into the chamber. I have seen a few click the safety off and then back on before placing it in the holster or prior to being placed wherever the off body start position dictates. To me they are verifying that the safety is engaged prior to removing their hand because they do not want to get DQ'ed. I see even more give the safety another push to check that it is in the proper position. However their routine works, it is the routine they follow for every COF.

[McCringleberry]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

Would you remind him of his error, or let things be, and have him suffer the consequences.

Ideally you would stop the shooter before they get the gun in the holster, but once it's in there, it is a DQ. The "consequences" are potentially life threatening, so they don't get a free pass.

+1. However, playing devils advocate, if it is in the holster already, its not unsafe at that point since the trigger guard is covered. I would do everything possible to prevent this from happening to a new shooter at a local match. Unfortunately, I have DQed two infractions such as this at Area matches.

[cohland]

Paired together it answers that question.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down,

or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety

engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

Understood, thanks. After years of reading contracts in business I thought I could understand anything, but reading the USPSA rules takes skill.

I'm learning.

Chris

Edited March 15, 2014 by cohland

[aandabooks]

My first match last year was with a FNX9 in production. This seemed to cause me extra to think about. Start with the gun cocked with safety on or hammer down and no safety. One way I had to sweep the safety off but got the first shot single action. The other way I didn't have to think about the safety but the first shot is DA.

I've since switched to a SA XDM 5.25" and don't have to worry about any of it.

[Jaxshooter]

Do what the rules call for. DQ It is a safety violation. The shooter will remember it the next time and you may have saved him a leg in the process.

[Poppa Bear]

My first match last year was with a FNX9 in production. This seemed to cause me extra to think about. Start with the gun cocked with safety on or hammer down and no safety. One way I had to sweep the safety off but got the first shot single action. The other way I didn't have to think about the safety but the first shot is DA.

I've since switched to a SA XDM 5.25" and don't have to worry about any of it.

No real choice if shooting Production. You must start hammer down as per App D4 Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal,

[Poppa Bear]

Do what the rules call for. DQ It is a safety violation. The shooter will remember it the next time and you may have saved him a leg in the process.

As long as it is in violation of 10.5.11. The OP has not said whether the gun in question is a Single Action used in Lim/L-10/SS/Open. A Select Fire used in Prod/Lim/L-10/Open. Or, a Double Action used in Prod/Lim/L-10/Open/Rev. If the RO thinks that ALL guns with external safeties need them applied prior to being holstered even if the hammer is down they would be interpreting the rules wrong.

The easy rule to remember is that if the hammer is cocked the safety needs to be applied. If the hammer is not cocked then the safety does not need to be applied. This even works for SS because the only time they are required to have the safety applied is for a loaded start. An unloaded start has the hammer down on an empty chamber.

[Fireant]

New shooter or experienced shooter, local match or major match it is still a DQ. We do not get to pick and choose when, where and for whom we apply the rules.

[a matt]

Well said Roger..

[Nimitz]

I'm not an RO so my opinion basically means nothing but if we could teach a new shooter about the rules while still being safe isn't there some value in that? Shooter loads his pistol, cocks the hammer but does not engage the safety and then holsters the gun and releases his grip .... At this point the RO then informs him that he has just committed a DQ offense, explains everything to him, has him correct his error and then allows him to shoot the CoF and tell him this was his one and only free pass .... Safety was not compromised and the new shooter got to continue to shoot the match and go home happy, probably to come back .... Everyone wins ......???

Of course I guess you could argue that the moment he started to holster the gun with the safety not engaged he was in an unsafe condition, which if true would warrent a DQ ....

[B_Seehawer]

New shooter or experienced shooter, local match or major match it is still a DQ. We do not get to pick and choose when, where and for whom we apply the rules.

I'm glad you don't shoot at my club. Rule Nazis tend to scare away new shooters. Do you seriously expect new shooters to see an advertisement or a club demo of uspsa and think to themselves " I should read the rulebook" before they show up? No. Especially when other club members encourage them to just "show up with gear" as is often the advice given here.

In my opinion, that would be a dick move that would scare away potential uspsa paying members.

I'm not an RO so my opinion basically means nothing but if we could teach a new shooter about the rules while still being safe isn't there some value in that? Shooter loads his pistol, cocks the hammer but does not engage the safety and then holsters the gun and releases his grip .... At this point the RO then informs him that he has just committed a DQ offense, explains everything to him, has him correct his error and then allows him to shoot the CoF and tell him this was his one and only free pass .... Safety was not compromised and the new shooter got to continue to shoot the match and go home happy, probably to come back .... Everyone wins ......???

^^This is a positive experience for new members.

[Sarge]

New shooter or experienced shooter, local match or major match it is still a DQ. We do not get to pick and choose when, where and for whom we apply the rules.

I'm glad you don't shoot at my club. Rule Nazis tend to scare away new shooters. Do you seriously expect new shooters to see an advertisement or a club demo of uspsa and think to themselves " I should read the rulebook" before they show up? No. Especially when other club members encourage them to just "show up with gear" as is often the advice given here. I'm glad I don't shoot at your club too! I won't shoot where rules are not enforced and those that do enforce rules are called rule nazis. I personally tell anyone intersted in shooting there first match to become familiar with the rule book before signing up to shoot my match. I also encourage them NOT to show up with gear before watching a match or two. The new shooters brief tells shooters they will be DQ'd if they commit an infraction that warrants it. No questions asked. In two years I can't calculate how many new shooters I have introduced to the game and they have been safe. I also don't know for sure how many brand new shooters have been DQ'd but it's more than a few by a long way. But I can tell you how many have been scared away and never returned. Exactly 2. Never came back to my knowledge. That is an acceptable ratio to me and I am perfectly comfortable with the calls.

I'm not an RO so my opinion basically means nothing This is not really true, but it does show you don't know what it's like to be told , "If somebody gets hurt under your supervision, that's on you". but if we could teach a new shooter about the rules while still being safe isn't there some value in that? Agreed. But how is holstering a loaded, cocked 1911 or 2011 with a 2 lb trigger, without engaging the safety "still being safe"?Shooter loads his pistol, cocks the hammer but does not engage the safety and then holsters the gun and releases his grip .... At this point the RO then informs him that he has just committed a DQ offense, explains everything to him, has him correct his error and then allows him to shoot the CoF and tell him this was his one and only free pass .... Safety was not compromised and the new shooter got to continue to shoot the match and go home happy, probably to come back .... Everyone wins ......??? As long as he doesn't shoot himself in the leg or foot trying to be as fast as everybody he has been watching

^^This is a positive experience for new members. Also a positive experience for an inherently unsafe shooter as well. And I'm sorry, if a new shooter doesn't understand a safety needs to be engaged before holstering, or you have to keep your finger off the trigger until shooting at targets, or you have to keep a muzzle pointed down range, then he is not ready to jump into USPSA.