Mag on the Ground

[Sam38]

Here's the situation:

12 round Vickers course. I was behind a door/wall, which was the start and finish position, and when I went to reload my Glock after slide lock on the 11th round I BOBBLED IT, big time. The mag went flying in the air and landed at my feet -- although I couldn't really see it because of my big belly. I left the full 10-round magazine on the ground and got another from the double pouch on my belt and completed the course. The COF ended at the door/wall and I didn’t have to move. However, the MD made sure that the SO added a procedural for having a mag with ‘ammo’ in it on the ground.

I thought he was TOTALLY wrong (and this is one of the ways IDPA will get you killed in a real gun fight, i.e. instead of getting a new magazine from your belt quickly you would dick around slowly picking up a dropped magazine from the ground – all the while being shot at by the bad guy) but I didn’t get upset or argue or anything. It would have been pointless and I'd rather not be thought of as a whiner.

It really is a shame that so many MD's and SO's think their job is to hand out procedurals instead of assisting the shooter to be able shoot as best as s/he can in a safe manner.

There are 7 IDPA clubs in my area that I frequent on a fairly regular basis. I'd say that only two of them are interested in helping, not penalizing the competior. Maybe for the 2005 shooting season I'll cut back a little. But, then again, any trigger time -- even with procedurals, is still better than not shooting.

DVC,

Sam

[Ted Murphy]

Don't forget Sam that IDPA is still a game and has rules. While there is no rule that specifically covers this situation many MD's believe rule 17's probitions on leaving ammunition behind during a tac load also covers this situation. There are provisions for leaving a magazine behind if there is a jam involved and most SO's won't penalize a guy who bobbles a magazine that flies away from cover, or if you make an honest attempt to retreive it, but if it's at your feet they may well expect you to pick it up. This is not something I'm hot to penalize people for but in the absence of a specific rule for the situation, that's pretty much the MD's call.

It's easy to complain about officiating, I shot a non idpa match recently where i wanted to stuff the RO into a burn barrel for being so unfair and inconsistent. Perhaps I could have made a stink or complained about it in detail on the internet. A better solution would be for both of us in this situation to have talked it over with the MD calmly and/or gotten involved ourselves in officiating future matches to effect more positive change.

Ted

[GENE S]

I have always thought that IDPA would be great practice for shooting a limited

gun over the winter, as most of the matches in my area are inside. UNTIL I shot this one match where you must engage the targets in tactical order from around a wall. One target real close, one back a few feet and the third off to the right and back several yards.

My partner shot first and received a procedial for not engageing in the targets in tactical order. Waching him, I shot it shooting the close target first and received a procedial for expiosing my self to the far right target.

Now there were only two ways to shoot this and we each got giged for it. When I left, I had called everyone involved with running the match everything that I could think of and a few that I had made up. I have never shot a IDPA match since.

I'm sure that not all clubs are run this way, but there must be someone watching over thier matches to make sure that this sort of thing does not go on all of the time.

[Ted Murphy]

. When I left, I had called everyone involved with running the match everything that I could think of and a few that I had made up. I have never shot a IDPA match since.

If you have so little self control as to act like that in public, I don't think they will miss you much.

IDPA's target engagement rules from cover are pretty clear and there rarely is more than one way to engage the targets. Sounds like as new shooters, you should have requested a quickie course on the IDPA concept of tactical priority. It is not near to far, it's as you see them when you come out from cover. Distance does not matter.

Shame, rather than try to understand a game you are not used to you just decided to be, well the way you were about it.

Ted

[MikeyG23]

We just had a long discussion about this very thing at the last match I shot and if you read the LGB carefully it definitely warrants a PE.

I don't necessarily agree with it but those are the rules.

[Sam38]

We just had a long discussion about this very thing at the last match I shot and if you read the LGB carefully it definitely warrants a PE.

I don't necessarily agree with it but those are the rules.

What was the reasoning you (plural) used? The concensus of the shooters up here in the fronzen north is that it was a bogus call. The rule book does state that magazines with ammo should not be left behind but I didn't leave anything behind. I didn't move from the shooting position as it was the first & last shooting position.

DVC,

Sam

[Steve Moneypenny]

It is a game, and that is the rule, no loaded mags on ground. however in your case.

few points... a slow yet efficient reload is better than a fast bobbled one. if you say your couldn't see the magazine you were best off reloading to the one on the belt because it would have taken more than 3 seconds to regainthe mag from the ground.

for those who want to complain about IDPA and tactics.. real life isn't fair, you made a mistake and it cost you, granted more than it would have in another sport. i'm sure the SO was just trying to enforce the rules as he saw fit.

from being in an RO/SO stand point it is hard to make a call like that but the rule is black and white on that. especially if you didn't have to expose yourself to retrieve it.

also who out there carries more than one spare mag when doing CCW.. heck i don't even usually carry a spare. if i need over 15 i better be back to my long gun before then.

[Flexmoney]

Hmmmm...

At the risk of getting a beat-down I'll post a penalty that a buddy got at an IDPA match that didn't seem right to me.

He was shooting revolver. During a reload, his speed loader spit out a round that didn't make it into the cylinder. It hit the ground, then rolled under the car that he was using for cover.

He got dinged for it.

Does that call seem right?

[Mark Perez]

"We just had a long discussion about this very thing at the last match I shot and if you read the LGB carefully it definitely warrants a PE.

I don't necessarily agree with it but those are the rules. "

MikeyG23

well lets take a look at the rules that would apply.

Many contestants have argued that “rule 17” (tac-loads) does not state that they can’t leave loaded loose rounds behind. As long as there are no loaded rounds in the loader/moon clip they do not incur a procedural penalty. Be advised and advise shooters to the fact that ‘if you leave any loaded rounds behind during a tac-reload, you get 3.0 added’. Magazines, speedloaders or loaded rounds dropped due to a clearance/malfunction will not be so ruled.

17. TACTICAL LOAD: Courses of fire may require that while firing a stage, no loaded ammunition carriers (i.e. magazines, speedloaders) may be left behind if the shooter moves to another firing position (exception: when clearing a firearm malfunction). The shooter’s firearm will be considered LOADED when the fresh magazine is seated or revolver cylinder is closed. Failure to do so will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. To be in the “spirit” of the stage, the shooter must retain the magazine in one of the following ways PRIOR to the firing of the first shot after a tactical load: pants pocket, vest pocket, jacket pocket, waistband or magazine pouch. Using specially designed pockets, shirt pockets or holding the magazine in the hand or teeth is NOT permitted.

Since Sam wasn't performing a tac-load , I don't think this one is applicable .

18. On stages requiring the shooter to reload, but not designated as a TACTICAL LOAD stage, the shooter may be required to shoot the gun dry before reloading in order to more closely simulate a real world situation.

Failure to do so will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. There are only two (2) approved types of re-loads in IDPA competition: #1 re-load from slide lock (shooter will be considered loaded when the slide is closed with a round in the chamber), #2 Tactical Load/Reload with Retention. A reload with a round still in the chamber (slide down) and abandoning any magazine, will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty, or possibly a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty

In the RW , I think it would be very reasonable to assume that if a shooter were to drop/fumble his initial reload , that he could expedite the reload by going to the number 2 mag on the belt ( there is a reason that LEO's carry 2 extra mags ).

Sam gained no competitive advantage by immediately going to his #2 mag - hence no PE.

Mark

[Mark Perez]

Hmmmm...

At the risk of getting a beat-down   I'll post a penalty that a buddy got at an IDPA match that didn't seem right to me.

He was shooting revolver.  During a reload, his speed loader spit out a round that didn't make it into the cylinder.  It hit the ground, then rolled under the car that he was using for cover.

He got dinged for it.

Does that call seem right?

NO that doesn't seem right IMO .

Calls like that fall under the Range Nazi clause ..

ASSISTING THE SHOOTER

Every effort should be made to assist the shooter in having a safe and enjoyable match. It is the goal of the safety officer to thoroughly explain the course-of-fire, answer questions, instruct the shooter on safety, give the benefit of the doubt on any questionable scoring question or ruling and do anything possible to assist the shooter during the match. Issuing a procedural penalty and/or disqualification should be the last thing a good IDPA SO would want to do. The range NAZI mentality of us (SOs) against them (shooters) is NOT welcome in IDPA and will NOT be tolerated.

The above would apply to both Sam's and Flex's case.

Mark

Edited December 20, 2004 by Mark Perez

[NEPAKevin]

Something to consider is that there most likely were many other shooters who negotiated the course of fire with out incident. When you do not penalize someone who earns a penalty, the refferee is then penalizing everyone else who did it right. To me, that is a greater injustice, kind of like when stores instead of trying to catch shoplifters raise the prices for everyone who pays.

Kevin

[Steve Moneypenny]

one more issue that needs to be clarified in the rule book hehehehehe

i definitley agree that no competitive advantage was gained and that the procedural was just adding salt to a wound. however i also feel that it is clearly stated in the rule book about leaving a loaded mag behind. More people would whine about not getting the penalty. soooo. we need a clarification from above.. AND a good way pass along information.

ya know wouldn't it be nice if they posted all of these amendments to the website.... just a thought....

[Mark Perez]

An MD/SO has to be able to back-up his PE with the rules.

Ask yourself - "what am I issuing this PE for?"

If you can't back it up with what is defined in the book - does the shooter really deserve the PE?

as Ted mentioned above , there really isn't a rule covering this particular situation - so it is the MD's call - if he was operating in the true spirit of IDPA , there would have been no PE.

Sometimes , I think more people should read the last half of the LGB vs. the first half , re ; Assisting the Shooter.

Mark

[waktasz]

What if after your last shot is fired you run back to snag the dropped mag. Nothing left behind, but the timer stopped at the last shot. That'd be interesting to see I think.

[Ted Murphy]

as Ted mentioned above , there really isn't a rule covering this particular situation - so it is the MD's call - if he was operating in the true spirit of IDPA , there would have been no PE.

Other thing to point out is we weren't there to see the entire circumstances of the call.

Ted

[Ted Murphy]

What if after your last shot is fired you run back to snag the dropped mag. Nothing left behind, but the timer stopped at the last shot. That'd be interesting to see I think.

If the MD were to use the criteria for retaing tac loads and applied it to the above situation the procedural would be incurred as soon as he fired the first shot after dropping the magazine.

This is one of those unfortunate situations where there are some divergence of opinons and while I may or may not agree with parties involved, I would hesitate to chastise them or think ill of the SO. This is a circustance where there is no doubt the magazine was dropped, so there is no benefit of said doubt to give him. What that leaves the MD with is his interpretation of the rules and since one of the major premises (correct or not, tactical or not) of the sport is that you cannot leave loaded ammunition behind, it is difficult to argue that the MD was off his rocker in making that call.

Ted

[Mark Perez]

Ted , I'll have to disagree with you here .

Rule 17 applies to TacLoads and dropped magazines , while the shooter in question was performing a slide lock reload. That is pretty clear in the wording of the text of the rule and Sam's account.

The fact that he dropped a mag and recovered a spare to complete the reload , isn't covered by Rule 17 - but could be addressed by Rule 18.

IMO , the MD can't use R17 to apply a PE because

• The shooter left no ammo behind , ie , there was no progression to another position.
  
• He wasn't performing a tacload.
  
• There is no provision for dropped mags in R18 that aren't a "speed load."
  

Also notice the mention of "to more closely simulate a real world situation. ", in R18 - it would be short sighted to expect a shooter to look for a dropped magazine in a RWS , when another magazine is immediately available.

Ground conditions in RWS would play a major part in the decision making process.

Is it dark ?

Did the mag fall under something ? Furniture , parked car , etc.

Is it muddy or grassy ?

I think this is one of those cases where an injection of common sense would benefit the shooter and the sport of IDPA as a whole .

Just my 2 cents ,

Mark

[NEPAKevin]

I BOBBLED IT, big time. The mag went flying in the air and landed at my feet -- although I couldn't really see it because of my big belly.

FWIW, based on what was posted, I think the shooter did the right thing in letting the mag go. If you loose sight of the mag, BTDT, it's better to let it go than risk doing something unsafe just to keep from getting dinged.

At one of Ted's matches, maybe two years ago, Walt Rauch was addressing the above described physical attribute and I think he used the term Tactical Arm Rest or something to that effect and stated that the abdominal extension allows the LEO or armed citizen a perch for resting one's arms while holding a suspect at gunpoint for long periods of time by using a two handed retention position supporting one's forearms with the TAR.

Kevin

[Sac Law Man]

If Sam made no attempt to pick the mag up when he was done shooting, I can see where the PE came from. But, if he picked up the mag as soon as he was done, still in the scenario,,no PE. If it was a Tac Load, and the shooter did not retrieve the mag before firing the next shot, the R/O would be justified in giving the P.E. (See pg 38 of RB). Since it was not a Tac load, I would say no P.E. as long as he himself picked up the mag as soon as he was done, as opposed to picking it up during scoring.

[banjobart]

Sam performed an IDPA legal reload (with retention or from slidelock) and thus should not have been dinged with a procedural. He did in fact perform a slide lock reload. He was not required to perform a retention reload.

He was penalized enough spending precious seconds getting out a second mag to reload.

To avoid a penalty are we to fish around in the grass for the live round we may eject in order to clear a jam? In real life are we to ask the bad guys for a time out while we find something we dropped?

What about those times the gun malfunctions and the slide locks back with a round still in the mag. Are we to be dinged for letting a live round hit the ground, although we performed a slide lock reload?

The club where this occurred (Tri-County in Saline, MI) is notorious for making up rules and giving unwarranted procedurals. I went to one match there. The verbal walk-throughs were confusing and contradictory so we read the written stage procedure posted at each stage. We did what it said to do. I got a procedural for not shooting targets in a particular order. I pointed to the written stage decsription taped to the table right in front of me. It said "engage targets in any order". My penalty stood and made it into the match results. The funny thing was, on the last stage the only guy to get a procedural was also the only guy who shot the stage according to the written procedure.

There is not a "no ammo on the ground" rule in the LGB. The problem here is not gaming but rule fabrication, the biggest detriment to the fine sport of IDPA.

[Sgtsvi]

The SO could have implemented what I saw at the Nats this year and pick the mag up and hand it to the shooter so he could finish the course of fire after he went dry with no more mags on his belt. I believe one of my teamates has it on video.

Dave

[Mark Perez]

The SO could have implemented what I saw at the Nats this year and pick the mag up and hand it to the shooter so he could finish the course of fire after he went dry with no more mags on his belt. I believe one of my teamates has it on video.

Dave

Now that's taking the "Assisting the shooter" concept above and beyond !

Mark

[Sgtsvi]

I thought so myself. There were about 15 people that saw it happen. I guess when you shoot for Wilson combat you get more breaks.

[Duane Thomas]

also who out there carries more than one spare mag when doing CCW..

I do. Blade-Tech double mag pouch.

[Duane Thomas]

He was shooting revolver. During a reload, his speed loader spit out a round that didn't make it into the cylinder. It hit the ground, then rolled under the car that he was using for cover.

He got dinged for it.

Does that call seem right?

No. I think at some point you have to apply the time honored concept of "no competitive advantage." If the shooter does something, like having his mag during a reload get away from him and having to go for a second spare, or having his revolver speedloader drop a round somewhere other than into the cylinder, this is obviously not something that was done intentionally, for a competitive advantage. Let it go.

I had the same situation Sam38 described happen to me at a match last month. This is BTW the first I've ever dropped a mag during a reload at a match. I wasn't assessed a procedural, nor did it ever occur to me I might be. The SOs at my IDPA club have their heads screwed on pretty straight - one of the many reasons I enjoy shooting there.