I'm done with it. These price increases are ridiculous going to mo

[Ssanders224]

I understand that's how capitalism ND free market society works. And that is fine. Because what will happen is that as the prices continue to rise people in our sport will likely start to find cheaper alternatives that produce desired effects and the company will begin to loose money and go by the wayside to companies who produce faster comparable products for less consumer cost.

I for one have shot pd pretty much exclusively. However with in almost 50% increase in price over the last 5 years and various quality and production issues they have encountered I will as a consumer in a capitalist society spend my dollars elsewhere

Mat,

Can you please elaborate on the "various quality and production issues" they have encountered?

[Ssanders224]

FWIW, I was using Precision Deltas too. They got WAY too expensive. Now Montana Gold is cheaper if you buy the 3750 boxes.

Seems to me Montana Gold and Precision Delta are priced competitively. For 124GR HP:

MG $92/1,000 in case qty

PD $98/1,000 in qty 4,000

I lean towards MG cuz they are prettier and have shorter lead times. But I buy PD too because they take backorders and hold true to their stated lead times.Basically, for me price is not a factor when buying jacketed bullets.

By my math, a case (3750) of MG 124 fmj comes out to be $98/1k. Their site shows a case at $368.

So technically PD can be cheaper. Buy 10k at a time, and they are priced at $95/1k.

Or, buy 6k at a time, and get them for same price as MG.

OR you can buy then 1000 at a time, in which case MG is $34 more expensive....

Am I missing something here??

It may get cheaper when you get to quantities like 10k. Unlike others here, that's only theoretical for me as I can't afford to drop $980 on a bullet order. My point was I paid $89 for JHP a little over a year ago at PD. Since then, they've raised their prices considerably. They used to be so much cheaper that MG and Zero weren't even a consideration for me. That's no longer the case.

What quantity do you normally buy?

If you buy quantities less than 3750, MG is most certainly more expensive. By a considerable amount.

If you buy 6k or more, PD is less than or equal to MG.

So if I understand correctly, you are only concerned with the magic quantity between 3750 and 6000 in wich MG carries a $1 saving per 1k bullets?

[RDA]

only that Montana Gold are better bullets. Maybe they have gotten better but there has been lots of comparisons on here regarding accuracy and the few times I tried to buy PD they were not available

Interesting, in various posts I have looked at within this forum, it always seemed to be about a draw between Montana Gold and Precision Delta as far as accuracy (specifically focusing on the 124g JHP version). If Zero was thrown into the comparison, it seemed people slightly preferred Zero but MG and PD were roughly the same and just trailed Zero.

[Sarge]

only that Montana Gold are better bullets. Maybe they have gotten better but there has been lots of comparisons on here regarding accuracy and the few times I tried to buy PD they were not available

Interesting, in various posts I have looked at within this forum, it always seemed to be about a draw between Montana Gold and Precision Delta as far as accuracy (specifically focusing on the 124g JHP version). If Zero was thrown into the comparison, it seemed people slightly preferred Zero but MG and PD were roughly the same and just trailed Zero.

I think PD went through a "phase" of accuracy issues from what I have been able to dig up on here. They also had some pretty long wait times last year. As for ZERO's, the only reason I never tried them is I had actually never seen them in person before last year at shooter's connection. They were just not available for far too long for me to ever give them a chance. Montana Gold went through a phase of short supply recently as we all know but they were better than most at getting caught up. Except for a short experiment with Precision moly 3 years ago or so in Production I have never used anything but Montana Gold. But I must admit I am really interested to see if some of these less expensive alternatives really do hold up to Open velocities, are accurate and don't smoke like a freight train. As much as I like MG if I can find a cheaper bullet that will do the same thing I'll buy it.

[Ssanders224]

I think PD went through a "phase" of accuracy issues from what I have been able to dig up on here. They also had some pretty long wait times last year. As for ZERO's, the only reason I never tried them is I had actually never seen them in person before last year at shooter's connection. They were just not available for far too long for me to ever give them a chance. Montana Gold went through a phase of short supply recently as we all know but they were better than most at getting caught up. Except for a short experiment with Precision moly 3 years ago or so in Production I have never used anything but Montana Gold. But I must admit I am really interested to see if some of these less expensive alternatives really do hold up to Open velocities, are accurate and don't smoke like a freight train. As much as I like MG if I can find a cheaper bullet that will do the same thing I'll buy it.

The text that I bolded is a lot different than your early post:

only that Montana Gold are better bullets.

"Montana Gold are better bullets for my needs" would be a resonable statement IMO.

Making either of these claims seems pretty bold unless you back it up with data. Saying that a company went through a "phase" of issues based on a couple of people posting on a public forum also seems like a stretch.

If anyone ever had any real accuracy issues with PD bullets, they probably should have handled that with PD. They are very good about correcting any issues if they arise (doesnt happen often). Not to mention that aligns with Benos guidlines anyway....

From the guidelines: "Brian's Forums is not the place to resolve customer service issues or disputes you may have with a manufacturer, dealer, gunsmith, or individual."

Back to the OP's topic of price,

I still seems to me that MG and PD are in line on price, and in the majority of quantities, PD is less expensive.

Maybe my math skills are eluding me?

[Sarge]

I think PD went through a "phase" of accuracy issues from what I have been able to dig up on here. They also had some pretty long wait times last year. As for ZERO's, the only reason I never tried them is I had actually never seen them in person before last year at shooter's connection. They were just not available for far too long for me to ever give them a chance. Montana Gold went through a phase of short supply recently as we all know but they were better than most at getting caught up. Except for a short experiment with Precision moly 3 years ago or so in Production I have never used anything but Montana Gold. But I must admit I am really interested to see if some of these less expensive alternatives really do hold up to Open velocities, are accurate and don't smoke like a freight train. As much as I like MG if I can find a cheaper bullet that will do the same thing I'll buy it.

The text that I bolded is a lot different than your early post:

only that Montana Gold are better bullets.

"Montana Gold are better bullets for my needs" would be a resonable statement IMO.

Making either of these claims seems pretty bold unless you back it up with data. Saying that a company went through a "phase" of issues based on a couple of people posting on a public forum also seems like a stretch.

I amended my earlier post just for you. This may be a public forum but there are members here whom I trust implicitly with there results and recommendations. And there are those who post on here that I generally don't even pay a lick of attention to. So when trusted people post there "data" I consider that good data.

As for the math I guess it depends on the shooter. Sure ordering 6 or 10 thousand Pd's is marginally less expensive than MG. In a group buy or a really high volume shooter that would be a little cheaper. Who knows what an average shooter orders? If it's a case at a time MG's are cheaper by less than a buck a thousand. If a guy needs to do only a thousand at a time then PD blows MG out of the water. My guess is typical active shooters buy by the case in which case it's pretty much a wash between the two at just under 10 cents a piece for 124 JHP's. Of course bullet selection is a little better with MG as I see no 115 JHP's on the PD site currently and they don't even list a 121.

Looks like the cheapest bullets made are Bayou at only $252 a case shipped. EXTREMES are actually creeping up on fully jacketed bullets in cost but they offer militry LEO discounts and they had a killer sale at Christmas.

Decisions, Decisions!

[Ssanders224]

I think PD went through a "phase" of accuracy issues from what I have been able to dig up on here. They also had some pretty long wait times last year. As for ZERO's, the only reason I never tried them is I had actually never seen them in person before last year at shooter's connection. They were just not available for far too long for me to ever give them a chance. Montana Gold went through a phase of short supply recently as we all know but they were better than most at getting caught up. Except for a short experiment with Precision moly 3 years ago or so in Production I have never used anything but Montana Gold. But I must admit I am really interested to see if some of these less expensive alternatives really do hold up to Open velocities, are accurate and don't smoke like a freight train. As much as I like MG if I can find a cheaper bullet that will do the same thing I'll buy it.

The text that I bolded is a lot different than your early post:

only that Montana Gold are better bullets.

"Montana Gold are better bullets for my needs" would be a resonable statement IMO.

Making either of these claims seems pretty bold unless you back it up with data. Saying that a company went through a "phase" of issues based on a couple of people posting on a public forum also seems like a stretch.

I amended my earlier post just for you. This may be a public forum but there are members here whom I trust implicitly with there results and recommendations. And there are those who post on here that I generally don't even pay a lick of attention to. So when trusted people post there "data" I consider that good data.

As for the math I guess it depends on the shooter. Sure ordering 6 or 10 thousand Pd's is marginally less expensive than MG. In a group buy or a really high volume shooter that would be a little cheaper. Who knows what an average shooter orders? If it's a case at a time MG's are cheaper by less than a buck a thousand. If a guy needs to do only a thousand at a time then PD blows MG out of the water. My guess is typical active shooters buy by the case in which case it's pretty much a wash between the two at just under 10 cents a piece for 124 JHP's. Of course bullet selection is a little better with MG as I see no 115 JHP's on the PD site currently and they don't even list a 121.

Looks like the cheapest bullets made are Bayou at only $252 a case shipped. EXTREMES are actually creeping up on fully jacketed bullets in cost but they offer militry LEO discounts and they had a killer sale at Christmas.

Decisions, Decisions!

I feel honored!

Ha.

But the meat of your post is what I've been trying to point out.

The two company's prices are in line on most quantities, with PD "blowing MG out of the water" when you buy by the 1k, and also being cheaper when you buy larger quantities (which I realize not everyone does).

With that being said, getting on here and complaining about PD's pricing just doesn't make sense to me.

[RDA]

I amended my earlier post just for you. This may be a public forum but there are members here whom I trust implicitly with there results and recommendations. And there are those who post on here that I generally don't even pay a lick of attention to. So when trusted people post there "data" I consider that good data.

I have searched and haven't found this "data" but I am interested in it in case anyone's "search fu" is better than mine or if they recall the post(s), I would appreciate being pointed in that direction. I have both PD and MG 124g JHP in my inventory and I am curious as to any real differences.

[Alaskapopo]

The price increases lately have nothing to do with increased work force new equipment ect. It's just plain price increases because of demand. In 2010 precision delta sold 124 jhp for around 80 bucks a thousand now they are a 120 a thousand. Why.

I'm just going to become proficient at cleaning my comp

I'm going to start loading bayou and bbi bullets in my open guns.

So I will have some load data later this week with hs6 and autocomp for 9 major and 38 super

Supply and demand basic economics 101. Do what you have to do. I understand ti sucks. But thats life.

Pat

[Dkrad1935]

" It's just plain price increases because of demand. "

LOL... That is how capitalism works.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

So true, it's all supply and demand. The market is not good or bad but it does not lie. Demand is through the roof and folks are paying the prices.

For the OP, give the Bayou or BBls a try. Everyone that tries them loves em. I get 3000 Bayou 147s delivered for $242.

There has been an underlying increase in their component costs. If their profits grew as you suggest, others would come in to participate. I have friends who are trying to start an ammo business. Don't kid yourself and think this is a very high margin business. Although high margin is relative - the margins aren't really growing.

[Dkrad1935]

In 2004 lead was about 20 cents per pound. It has come down recently to 1 dollar a pound. Lead is a commodity and commodities are typically sound markets in terms of how you would normally think of supply and demand. Although there is some environmental compliance interference even internationally.

Lead would have to be (totally guessing) 50-60 % of the price if bullets? So as the main component goes so does the price. Brass would be the other big component. And I couldn't find a chart of prices, all metals are up over the last few years.

So - I think it's a bit naive to say companies just charge more because people are buying more. It's true in some cases to an extent but I don't think it is what's going on with ammo

[Dkrad1935]

The other thread on this topic just got locked down as I was writing a really long reply.

Ah well. People who don't understand economics seem to always want to declare a conspiracy of corporations or government.

[Dkrad1935]

Sorry for all the posts but this topic fascinates me. I had a job a few years back as a sourcing manager for a large company's men's apparel portfolio.

We were negotiating costs for leather wallets and I learned the most fascinating things. Leather costs were through the roof.

The reason surprised me. Leather comes from cows. Most of the hide gets appropriated for leather interiors of cars. That has been a huge change over the past 6-12 years and has driven up the costs for the remaining hide.

No one raises cattle for leather that I am aware of. At the same time beef consumption was down or flat and all if that combined to create high prices for small leather goods.

Other examples like that popped up but always understand the supply chain and components of a product to understand costs and cost volatility.

For ammo - where does brass and lead come from. Where is it mined and refined and turned into bullets and casings etc. what does the labor of each of those places look like. Is the labor getting cheaper or more expensive?

What else competes for the raw materials. Is China consuming the raw materials? Etc etc. anyway it gets infinitely complicated and I guarantee you the major ammo companies have a team dedicated to sourcing raw materials and they understand all of those things and the markets for each. They know how to forecast what will happen to their costs over time and what that means for the prices they charge. They get pretty sophisticated at this.

Anyway. I promise not to post anything else on this topic. For at least the rest of the night!

[Gussers]

What quantity do you normally buy?

If you buy quantities less than 3750, MG is most certainly more expensive. By a considerable amount.

If you buy 6k or more, PD is less than or equal to MG.

So if I understand correctly, you are only concerned with the magic quantity between 3750 and 6000 in wich MG carries a $1 saving per 1k bullets?

My point was more that PD used to be a no-brainer. They were pretty good quality and considerably cheaper than the competitors. In the past couple years, they have gone up and up in price... a lot! They are no longer the bargain they once were. They used to be much cheaper than MG and Zero. Now, they are pretty darn close to MG prices. For the price, I'd probably buy the MGs. I've since gone to Xtreme bullets. Partly because they're a little cheaper and partly because I'm pissed they raised their prices so much at PD.

[tbrtt1]

Its pure supply and demand. Otherwise gas prices would never go down. They fluctuate, albeit with a general long term rise commiserate with inflation.

When prices go too high for people to reload and shoot they will do it less. When companies start having inventory piling up it will be in their interest to move the inventory.

Having said all that, the issue may be that the demand for shooting supplies never really goes down enough for the prices to go down. The various components have been mighty hard to come by for a few years now. Most folks I know are hoarding and ergo, demand keeps going up. Of course, then you have the retailers. When demand is such that they can't get product on their shelves to sell they don't make money. So when they do get product in they jack it up and people walk in a pay it.

Most of us are very passionate and really love this sport and hobby and it doesn't seem like we have reached our pain threshold, not withstanding the OP. In my neck of the woods the IDPA and USPSA clubs are growing and the number of first time gun owners is growing as is those wanting to get into reloading. I don't see that trend going down, only up. What we need is more suppliers…..ah ha, is that the call of capitalism I hear to go into business and offer a better product for cheaper?

[tbrtt1]

" It's just plain price increases because of demand. "

LOL... That is how capitalism works.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

So true, it's all supply and demand. The market is not good or bad but it does not lie. Demand is through the roof and folks are paying the prices.

For the OP, give the Bayou or BBls a try. Everyone that tries them loves em. I get 3000 Bayou 147s delivered for $242.

There has been an underlying increase in their component costs. If their profits grew as you suggest, others would come in to participate. I have friends who are trying to start an ammo business. Don't kid yourself and think this is a very high margin business. Although high margin is relative - the margins aren't really growing.

Exactly, hence my last line in my previous post, the call of capitalsm. Conspiracy, price gouging my A$%. If it is such a scam we should all be in business making and selling components. If you don't like the prices stop buying them or try to do it yourself.

[dqshooter]

Its all crap, if there is such a shortage and it is so expensive to get lead, and all the gov regs and such. Why haven't 44Mag, 38spec and 357 Mag sky rocketed like everything else. There just isn't that much demand. All the gloom and doom was for nothing, I counted 7 ARs at my local walmart yesterday and we have three. Not to mention Our academy has a ton. it all just old American greed. Every idiot that read on the internet how the Gov was about to take our guns away, went out an bought a gun. Flash forward, the constitution is still in play and unchanged; imagine that! Don't write your congressman, write your ammo manufacture and your reloading components manufacture and tell them you re unhappy (hell straight up pissed), maybe no one buys ammo for a week and see what happens? See if that gets their attention. If your not part of the solution, you re part of the problem, Just my thoughts.

[tbrtt1]

Its all crap, if there is such a shortage and it is so expensive to get lead, and all the gov regs and such. Why haven't 44Mag, 38spec and 357 Mag sky rocketed like everything else. There just isn't that much demand. All the gloom and doom was for nothing, I counted 7 ARs at my local walmart yesterday and we have three. Not to mention Our academy has a ton. it all just old American greed. Every idiot that read on the internet how the Gov was about to take our guns away, went out an bought a gun. Flash forward, the constitution is still in play and unchanged; imagine that! Don't write your congressman, write your ammo manufacture and your reloading components manufacture and tell them you re unhappy (hell straight up pissed), maybe no one buys ammo for a week and see what happens? See if that gets their attention. If your not part of the solution, you re part of the problem, Just my thoughts.

Speaking out of both sides. You say there isn't that much demand then say its just American greed? Whether its from greed or growing market, demand is up. Period. Not as much demand for 44, 3567 etc. so the prices haven't gone up. People aren't buying ARs right now, so you see them on the shelf. If there is no shortage of supplies go online and order 8 lbs of VV N320 and let me know when you get it. Must be a fancy illusion that I can't find power.

Tell you what, you stop buying ammo for a while and see who else lines up with you.

[Dkrad1935]

If you don't think lead prices are up just look at bloomberg or any other commodity tracker.

If you don't think increased lead prices drives prices up I don't really think u will ever find an answer.

Is 44 cheaper than 9mm? Not that I have seen. 44 has gone up.

[gose]

In 2004 lead was about 20 cents per pound. It has come down recently to 1 dollar a pound. Lead is a commodity and commodities are typically sound markets in terms of how you would normally think of supply and demand. Although there is some environmental compliance interference even internationally.

Lead would have to be (totally guessing) 50-60 % of the price if bullets? So as the main component goes so does the price. Brass would be the other big component. And I couldn't find a chart of prices, all metals are up over the last few years.

So - I think it's a bit naive to say companies just charge more because people are buying more. It's true in some cases to an extent but I don't think it is what's going on with ammo

If you don't think lead prices are up just look at bloomberg or any other commodity tracker.

I posted this earlier in the thread, but it might have been hard to spot below that big CTD image...

This is spot lead over the last three year. To me it looks like lead is down about 20% over that time and about flat for the last two years.

Clearly the price of lead is not the source of price increases.

Here's the 5y spot. There was a sharp increase in -09, but lead price has been pretty flat since August of -09.

Here's the spot price of copper, which would be the other major component of most bullets and brass. It did increase more than lead bacj in -09 and 10, but even copper has been pretty much flat for the last four years (discounting the peak in -11, which lead had as well)

Edited March 7, 2014 by gose

[gm iprod]

It is not just raw material costs thing that influences the cost of projectiles.

There is enough lead coming out of Canada, Chile, Australia, Ireland, Italy, Spain, North Africa, Persia to more than make up for the loss of the last ore refinery in the US. Lead is not quiet infinitely recyclable, but with the improvements in the recovery process in more modern plants, the loss of the plants in MO will not be felt greatly, except by those who are now unemployed. Bullet makers do not solely buy new lead. Most use recycled lead to some degree, and if recycled properly it is 99.999% pure, some bullets have tin added to the lead for the core. Most bullet makers do not use pure copper, they use gilding metal which has zinc and or nickel in it. Tin, Nickel and Zinc are dearer than Lead per pound. Some jackets are also nickel plated. Pure copper out of the mill is $3 a lb. Processed and Alloyed Copper is not. Cost to manufacture, wages for staff, costs of shipping (influenced by fuel pricing) storage, taxes, all these influence the costs of the components to make projectiles and therefore ammunition.

Zero are always in short supply. According to them they could stop taking orders and take a year to fill what the currently have. Plus they have contractual obligations for a certain amount of their production to go to an ammunition maker. But they will not stop taking orders as unfortunately with the long lead time people will fall off the list and buy something else. I have used MG, Sierra, Hornady and Zero. I have no beef with any other maker, but some are just plain hard to deal with, others better. I personally prefer Zero, especially the new 115gr and 125gr 9mm Conical. I am prepared to wait, I am prepared to pay the price. I have alternates and back up plans. I use what I have to to get the job done.

I no longer sell polymer coated projectiles for a number of reasons from certain manufacturers, it would be unfair to elaborate as they do not have the chance to counter my arguments. But where I am it is uneconomical to import Lead Poly Coat bullets from the USA as it currently stands. But certain Jacketed Projectiles are still deserving of my money. I am prepared to wait.

I can not afford to shoot Hornady, Nosler or Sierra, they are slightly better than the Zero, MG etc etc. But as it stands they just can't supply the bullets at a price I can afford and in quantities that I need. Sierra right now I believe are not making pistol projectiles this year at all. All time and materials are going into the volume market of 223, 308 and anything else rifle they have time to make.

Everyone I know in the industry has extra shifts working extra days. They have all the machinery and staff they can afford to have and run safely and efficiently. I believe this is the way it will be for a while, how short or long that while will be is outside my area of expertise.

Various rumors still abound in this industry. But the things I know are. All manufacturers are going full tilt at this. They are all scrambling to get as much out the door while demand is high. No one is sitting on their hands. There is too much money at stake. Anyone not going full tilt will be left in the dust when it all settles. AND IT WILL, I just don't know when.

The problem has existed since 2006 when I came up for the Bianchi Cup. We had terrible trouble getting powder and primers back then. That taught me to slowly and carefully (as I had the money) to buy a small amount extra every month until over 3 years I had 2 years back up. I then decided to keep going. I have not been able to get Titegroup in bulk for close on 12 months. All we were getting was partial deliveries of all ammo, and components since 2012. That slowly eroded any back up stock that was being held by distributors and retailers. Buying has exceeded supply for some three years and at the beginning I suspect that many manufacturers were saying "this wont last too long" like the last time. But it did. So by the time they got their collective shit together it was too late. Stockpiles had eroded and here we are.

I could in theory shoot the next 4 Bianchi Cups without buying primers and projectiles. But I will continue to keep my stockpile at its present level just in case.

As far as I can see prices have moved up slightly higher than inflation in general over the last 5 years. But with the tightening of the domestic belts of many in the US, they do not have the excess income that they had 3 or even 2 years back. That hurts. I have had to decrease the amount of shooting as I have less time and less income to cover what I did need.

Try paying for bullets when your dollar only gets you 82cents US. Plus we have to ship what we want 8000 miles, and there are many that are way worse off than me.

Apologies if I went on a bit.

[tbrtt1]

I repeat, the market is not good or bad, just pure. Demand is up. Way up. Period.

[Steve RA]

As sort of a check, compare rise in Grocery prices over the same period of time. Or Gas prices over the same period.

[tbrtt1]

In 2004 lead was about 20 cents per pound. It has come down recently to 1 dollar a pound. Lead is a commodity and commodities are typically sound markets in terms of how you would normally think of supply and demand. Although there is some environmental compliance interference even internationally.

Lead would have to be (totally guessing) 50-60 % of the price if bullets? So as the main component goes so does the price. Brass would be the other big component. And I couldn't find a chart of prices, all metals are up over the last few years.

So - I think it's a bit naive to say companies just charge more because people are buying more. It's true in some cases to an extent but I don't think it is what's going on with ammo

If you don't think lead prices are up just look at bloomberg or any other commodity tracker.

I posted this earlier in the thread, but it might have been hard to spot below that big CTD image...

This is spot lead over the last three year. To me it looks like lead is down about 20% over that time and about flat for the last two years.

Clearly the price of lead is not the source of price increases.

Here's the 5y spot. There was a sharp increase in -09, but lead price has been pretty flat since August of -09.

Here's the spot price of copper, which would be the other major component of most bullets and brass. It did increase more than lead bacj in -09 and 10, but even copper has been pretty much flat for the last four years (discounting the peak in -11, which lead had as well)

I must be reading this wrong, but it looks to me on your posted kitco graph for lead that it was around 60 cents/lb in March of 09 and is now about a dollar/lb. That looks like a 40% increase. Ditto for Copper.

Edited March 7, 2014 by tbrtt1

[Steve RA]