Treatment of U.S. Soldiers

[CSEMARTIN]

A few days ago, I saw an episode of Larry King Live. It was a story about a U.S. Soldier that lost most of his left arm after a road-side bomb detonated near the truck he was in. To show their appreciation for his service, our military sent him a bill for $6,000 dollars (which included a fee for a lost sleeping bag). I can't believe it. Because the story made national news, the military made the bill disappear. This never should have happened in the first place!

Tonight on one of the major networks (ABC,NBC,CBS??), there was a story about a soldier that returned home to find out that he had been laid off from his job. Why is this happening? It's really starting to get me pissed off.

Can anyone tell me how it is that our soliders are in Iraq fighting without body armor?

If anyone disagrees with me, I'll happily refer you to the most recent article in the Journal of the American Medical Association detailing the horrific battle wounds that many of our soliders are dealing with.

[Nik Habicht]

If anyone disagrees with me, I'll happily refer you to the most recent article in the Journal of the American Medical Association detailing the horrific battle wounds that many of our soliders are dealing with.

I could be wrong --- but I suspect that the docs are seeing more horrifying injuries because we've improved our system of getting live soldiers to doctors for surgeries, i.e. one could be more severely injured and survive in this war than in any other war in our past......

[dirtypool40]

I don't want to step in it here, but remember our media and the AMA are visciously liberal, and will show whatever they can about Iraq in the worst light possible. Showing the horrors of war, and yes war is horrible, on TV has been part of their plan to undermine the position there since day 1, ala Mike Moore. Hell, his wasn't even a new trick, Kronkite did this in Viet Nam along with carefully delivered messages about how we were losing, until the American people started to believe it.

As to horrible injuries, survival rates for injured soldiers have continued to climb since the American Civil war, more so in WWI and WWII. This trend continued through Korea and Viet Nam, and Nik had it right, it's a combination of better medical care and speed of transport.

Yes it's ugly, but the fact that you are seeing only the worst, even the order they play the stories in, is pure propaganda editorializing.

It's ugly, but I believe we are in the fight of our lives, right now, this is WWIII.

Link to my gallery post like this. =>Freedom Ain't Free

[JFlowers]

[rant on]

While the ineptitude of the system we have created never ceases to amaze me, the information filtering done by our media continues to amaze me. If 10 facts can be stated about a situation and 1 makes a good story but the other 9 make that 1 a non-issue, ABC/NBC/TBS/etc will happily drop the 9 and make a story out of the 1 fact by itself. So much for responsible journalism. I am sure that this story has more to it that Larry King told.

Take the uproar about unarmored Humvees in Iraq. The Humvee was designed as a replacement for the Jeep. You remember the Jeep.... open air little vehicle with no armor. Its not that the military is neglected the troops by failing to provide them with the armor for the Humvees, the problem is the Humvees are the wrong vehicle for the job, but they are what we have. Look at pictures of the up-armored Humvees and especially the "Hillbilly" armored Humvess. Notice the tires. They are canted because the suspension was never designed for the weight being placed upon it. There are armored versions of the Humvees but there is a lot more to the job than bolting armor over the vehicle. Where are the M113s, Bradleys, and Strykers which are the proper armored vehicles for these tasks? Oh, Budget cuts! Conservatives like to point the finger at the Clinton era for that, and while I personally enjoy giving Clinton the finger, I will reserve blame until I have facts.

The soldier in question, if you dig out the facts... I would not be surprised to find that he lost his arm but still has his life due to body armor. That would make sense as modern body armor covers the Torso and leaves the arms uncovered.

As for his job, US employers are in a bind. Their trained and skilled employees who are reservists and guardsmen are being pulled into active duty, not for a 3 week trip to Haiti to rebuild homes but for 18 month duty stints. So the employer has no choice, especially small businesses, but to hire and train someone else to fill that job. Now when the soldier comes home, the employer does not have an opening for them. Is it sad and unfair? Yes, but what are the employers to do?

[rant off]

My thoughts and prayers go out to all those serving, their families waiting, and especially those who have sacrificed body, soul, and too often their lives.

[Hank Ellis]

Is it sad and unfair? Yes, but what are the employers to do?

My employer has a solid history supporting our military men and women. It's written policy that their job will be here when they get back. Depending on senority and other factors, they may have to go to another location but since all of us have to travel anyway, it's no big deal. On top of that, the company will make up the difference between what the military pays and what they would have made in base salary. In other words, no loss of pay going active duty.

Why is the company doing this? Simple, we have a highly trained and experienced work force in rotorcraft transportation. The cost of attracting, hiring, and training the work force is very high and keeping these people around is in their best interest.

Get a disabling injury? I've seen the company go out of it's way to find a slot for them. Even to the point of creating a new position where their skills can be used.

I know that this is the exception rather than the rule but it proves it can and is being done.

[blackdragon]

Most of our media has turned into "Tabloid Media". It is Total Bull S@#$

Ivan

[SiG Lady]

Yes, and if it isn't leaning tabloid-ish it's a downright shalllow 'USA Today' video version of the headlines... with lots and lots of time wasted on commercials as well...! GAHHH!!

[mpolans]

IIRC, there is already a federal law prohibiting firing, demoting or otherwise screwing over some because their reserve unit is activated. There might be some narrow exceptions for hardship to small businesses that can't afford a temp, but generally, it's supposed to be a no-no.

[CSEMARTIN]

Is it sad and unfair? Yes, but what are the employers to do?

I appreciate all that replied. Some thoughts represented angles/ideas I hadn't thought of. The above quote did disturb me however. To me, it's not about being sad or unfair. It's about respect, loyalty, committment, dedication and honor of those that protect us. You can make whatever excuse you want, the fact is, our soldiers deserve better.

I could be wrong --- but I suspect that the docs are seeing more horrifying injuries because we've improved our system of getting live soldiers to doctors for surgeries, i.e. one could be more severely injured and survive in this war than in any other war in our past......

Nik, I agree with you 100%. Our system is much better. Our body armor is better. Medics are better trained...........

I was only trying to relay my disgust for how some soldiers are being treated. Several comments were made with regard to the media. Obviously the media is liberal, they have their agenda, etc..... The only point I was trying to make is that our soldiers are in Iraq, getting hurt or killed, and some of them are getting screwed over.

[George]

CSEM,

Here is a list of the available Larry King Live transcripts:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/lkl.html

Can you please help me identify the episode you are talking about? I am interested in finding out about this and it does not stand out in the listings.

Thanks,

[CSEMARTIN]

George,

I have been searching Larry King's transcripts for about an hour with no luck. I sent them an e-mail requesting information regarding that particular show. I will post some information if/when I get it.

Chris

[ranger]

Note - I just returned from Iraq. No one is allowed into Iraq without the current Interceptor Body Armor including the SAPI plates.

Becoause of the Kevlar melmets and body armor with SAPI plates, soldiers and Marines survive horrendous incidents bacause the head and torso is protected; however, a second order effect is that wounds to the extremities are increasing. The armor and prompt/professional mediacl attention has dramatically decreased the death-from-wounds rate.

As far as comments about uparmored vehicles. There are plenty of M1 series tanks and M2/M3 series Bradley fighting vehicles plus the M113 APC series available. The HMMWVs that go outside the wire must have Level 1 (factory armor)or Level 2 Armor (factory upgrade kit). "Hillbilly" armor (Level 3 - homemade) is not allowed outside the Forward Operating Base wire.

The main issue at present with "armor" is protection for the trucks that are the backbone of the logitics system. These were never intended to be in harm's way on a daily basis.

[D.Hayden]

ranger... have they added armor packages to the 113s and 577s?

[uscbigdawg]

...No one is allowed into Iraq without the current Interceptor Body Armor including the SAPI plates.

Becoause of the Kevlar melmets and body armor with SAPI plates, soldiers and Marines survive horrendous incidents bacause the head and torso is protected; however, a second order effect is that wounds to the extremities are increasing. The armor and prompt/professional mediacl attention has dramatically decreased the death-from-wounds rate.

As far as comments about uparmored vehicles. There are plenty of M1  series tanks and M2/M3 series Bradley fighting vehicles plus the M113 APC series available. The HMMWVs that go outside the wire must have Level 1 (factory armor)or Level 2 Armor (factory upgrade kit). "Hillbilly" armor (Level 3 - homemade) is not allowed outside the Forward Operating Base wire.

The main issue at present with "armor" is protection for the trucks that are the backbone of the logitics system. These were never intended to be in harm's way on a daily basis.

Ditto.

The basic fact is that mortality rates for a soldier is better in Iraq than in the US. As ranger mentioned, the IBA's (which are way f'ing cooler than the old flack jackets) do a great job of protecting you, but do leave the extremities exposed (particularly the arms and legs).

As for the supply trucks not having armor...they've got escorts for a reason.

The Army (and I'm sure the other departments) have stepped up our medical training, so that 91W's are not just field grade EMT's. The amount of aid and treatment that we are expected to provide has grown to the level of nearly being surgeons in the field. Survival rates are higher than ever.

As for job security. While it would be great if an employer could keep an open position for a deployed soldier until his return, as a businessman, 18-24 months is an unrealistic expectation. The employer has to be able to maintain their business, and if the opportunity to return to the job is there upon the soldier's return...great. If not, it's an unfortunate affect of the situation.

I left my job to go back to the Army, and while my employer has said she will hold a position for me, I don't expect it to be back when I return. It's just not fair for a small business when an individual makes up a significant portion of a firm's profitability. If it was a medium/large firm where the work load could be absorbed, I'm sure it can be done easily. In a small architecture firm, it just ain't possible.

SPC Richard White

1/79th FA

[ranger]

Re. the question about M113/M577 armor - the M577s do not get outside the wire that I can tell. All the M577s (a M113 series APC designed to serve as a command post or fire direction center) are parked.

The M113s are popular for the more rural areas - they cannot keep up with the M1s, M2s, and M1114s (uparmored HMMWVs) on the urban highways. I have not seen a significant amount of additional armor on the M113s other than the addition of gun tubs around the M2 and the TC position. I bet they have sandbagged the floors, though.

Bigdawg, the logistics trucks need armor kits particularly for the IEDs and VIEDs - the roadside bombs do not care how many escort vehicles are with the trucks.

Regards

[CSEMARTIN]

George,

I have received two automated e-mails from CNN, but no information regarding the transcripts from that particular episode. I apologize for not being more help.

Chris

[Putty]

The main facet of liberal politics in the media, is to first appeal to your emotions, then spin it. They know that human emotions are so powerful (with presented images) that they often over-ride logic and clear thinking....i.e. FACTS. You quoted the major 3 networks that are inscruitably liberal.

One case in point was when I was a college Moonbat. The leftist loonies on our campus were putting up leaflets of a wolf laying on the floor of a rather anticeptic room with Fish & Wildlife Officers standing quite a ways back and observing. The moonbats had put their own caption to the picture which stated "Fish & Wildlife personnel are killing our native wolves". That was highly inflammatory, did nothing for natural resources and was a LIE! The wolf had been drugged, personnel was standing away from the animal, as ketamine may disable but the senses are on high, thus they were trying to reduce the noise and interaction stress levels before transport and subsequent transplantation.

Do yourself a big favor. Watch Bill O'reilly on Foxnews.