Stoeger M3000 922r Compliance

[MarkCO]

Yea a silly violation would be a career ender for me... So mark are you making those disconnectors?

I have had several people request that we make parts for the M3000. We might consider it as a kit that would get it 922r compliant, but I would not sell single parts. If that is something I get enough requests for, I might take a run at it.

[CarRacer]

I know I would be interested in being legal, if the new parts happened to make a lighter trigger or shorten the reset I wouldn't be mad about it.

[Nebwake]

Yea the trigger geometry issues is pretty glaring. I would be interested.

[CJW]

Having lookes at the 922® issue a while ago and having bought an M3000, I have been following the thread. Also, I have been going back through the statutes.

My recollection is that part of what triggered a 922® issue was a feature list. After all, Stoeger managed to get the base gun imported in the first place, so it should be 922® compliant as is, right? But I can't find a feature list test as I go back through the statutes. Am I misremembering or just not finding it? Is it a a one-feature test or multi? I mostly remember it coming up in the past for folks who wanted to run pistol grip shotguns, which I do not, but I could quite obviously just be confused.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Has anyone ever researched arrests for 922R noncompliance?

[openclassterror]

I have never heard of a case in which an arrest was made specifically for non-compliance. It is more like the tires I used to have on my Trans Am as a teenager. I was never ONCE pulled over for having tires that protruded beyond my fenders, but EVERY time I got pulled over for speeding or anything else, they added an extra ticket for the protruding tires. Just an extra charge to increase the misery of somebody who is already getting in trouble. Ironically, I drive an Excursion with 35inch tires that stick out WAAAYYY farther than the Trans Am's tires ever did, but since I no longer drive like an ass it has never led to any trouble at all. Same kind of deal. I doubt anybody is going to start patrolling 3gun matches looking for compliance issues because we are generally not the crowd that is looking for trouble. But I would rather not "have the tires stickin' out", so to speak. It is easy enough to follow the rules

[BOOM]

I've called and spoken with Stoeger and Nordic Tech department . Both are saying the shotgun had to meet those requirements to be able to sold in this country. They cannot understand where this stuff gets started. Call them yourself

[openclassterror]

OK guys, I did some diligent research, and here is where it is coming from. There is no issue with the Stoeger AS SOLD FROM THE FACTORY because total capacity does not exceed 5 rounds. It only gets interesting when we put the big mag tubes on. In that case, it could fall under the current definition of a (semiautomatic assault weapon "SAW") if it ALSO includes one other feature from a list. This Link is to the actual Federal codes and regulations website if you want to read the whole boring thing. But I cut and pasted the part that applies to Shotguns specifically as pertaining to 922r.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a5193b20d0fcc546d314f45225c4f025&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Here is what falls under compliance rules-

Semiautomatic assault weapon. (a) Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as:

(1) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models), (IE the saigas)

.....(list of "ugly" non-shotgun guns here)........

(9) Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

......And here is the part that concerns us.........

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of—

(1) A folding or telescoping stock,

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and

(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.


SO, in short, adding an extended magazine gives you one point. As long as you don't put (1), (2), or (4) on the Stoeger, the 922r parts list is not in effect. Hate to say it because we are making compliance parts, but our follower and disconnector have benefits over the factory parts anyhow, so I am not worried about giving up sales. But at least now the actual info is out here for display. In effect, don't put an AR stock and grip set on it and you are OK. The Benellis that get in trouble are the ones with the factory pistol grip stock. Add a big tube, and you now have the magic two features (2) and (3). That is why the SPAS went away as well (the cool shotgun from Jurassic Park). No longer importable.

Tom

Edited March 6, 2014 by openclassterror

[mikeAZ]

Aha, Good input Tom... When do you think you will have the Follower & disconnector available?.. Mike, a customer

[openclassterror]

Followers are on the shelf, ready to ship. Disconnectors will be ready to ship by Monday. We are making final design tweaks so they are 100% drop-in compatible with factory trigger but still allow interface with the fully adjustable trigger mods I detailed for the do-it -yourself crowd in another thread. We want people to be able to adjust their trigger mods without dis-assembling the trigger group.

Tom

[gose]

OK guys, I did some diligent research, and here is where it is coming from. There is no issue with the Stoeger AS SOLD FROM THE FACTORY because total capacity does not exceed 5 rounds. It only gets interesting when we put the big mag tubes on. In that case, it could fall under the current definition of a (semiautomatic assault weapon "SAW") if it ALSO includes one other feature from a list. This Link is to the actual Federal codes and regulations website if you want to read the whole boring thing. But I cut and pasted the part that applies to Shotguns specifically as pertaining to 922r.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a5193b20d0fcc546d314f45225c4f025&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Unfortunately I dont fully agree with your assessment...

Non-sporting and semi automatic assault rifles/shotguns are different things. Importability and sporting/non-sporting classification is determined by a non-published subjective ATF procedure, partly explained here: http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/import-requirements-for-firearms-and-ammunition

They make it pretty clear that the list in non-exhaustive and subjective. A 5+ round tube is something I've also seen used as an "evil" feature banning something from importation, though not listed on that page.

The link you provided is a definition of terms, any references to that definition in the actual code were removed after the -94 ban expired. The non-sporting criteria came with the -89 import ban and has always been separated from the -94 ban, both in wording and in practice.

Nowhere do they say, or list, that non-sporting is equated with the definition of an assault weapon . It's therefor possible that putting an extension on a Stoeger would indeed make it non-sporting and violate 922®.

Edited March 6, 2014 by gose

[openclassterror]

Well, crap. It just gets muddier and muddier. The Link I provide said it was current as of 2 days ago. I was under the impression they were using the "SAW" list as the definition for sporting purposes for import qualification in spite of the crime bill going away. As in, not illegal to own if made here anymore, but can't be imported. I wish I had asked the guys at the ATF booth when I was at the SHOT show. Didn't look like they were too busy. Matter of fact from the way traffic flowed around their booth you woulda thought they had the measles!

Edited March 6, 2014 by openclassterror

[gose]

Well, crap. It just gets muddier and muddier. The Link I provide said it was current as of 2 days ago. I was under the impression they were using the "SAW" list as the definition for sporting purposes for import qualification in spite of the crime bill going away. As in, not illegal to own if made here anymore, but can't be imported. I wish I had asked the guys at the ATF booth when I was at the SHOT show. Didn't look like they were too busy. Matter of fact from the way traffic around their booth you woulda thought they had the measles!

Well, I guess technically it is current as the definition itself is still valid, its just not used anywhere in the code

Without asking ATF, its currently impossible to clearly know if a shotgun is sporting or non-sporting. How ATF can get away with this is a bit of a mystery to me, but the benefits to them are nice:

a ) they can pretty much do whatever they want

b ) no risk of importers and manufacturers getting all smart and building/importing stuff that follows the letter of the law/regulation

Edited March 6, 2014 by gose

[openclassterror]

So the ATF letter, as printed higher up in this same thread in response to one of the forum members, says that in order for it to be compliant, it needs 2 US parts. But it was already imported without them. So, if it does not need SAW features to require compliance, why was it OK to import it?

[Jesse Tischauser]

OK guys, I did some diligent research, and here is where it is coming from. There is no issue with the Stoeger AS SOLD FROM THE FACTORY because total capacity does not exceed 5 rounds. It only gets interesting when we put the big mag tubes on. In that case, it could fall under the current definition of a (semiautomatic assault weapon "SAW") if it ALSO includes one other feature from a list. This Link is to the actual Federal codes and regulations website if you want to read the whole boring thing. But I cut and pasted the part that applies to Shotguns specifically as pertaining to 922r.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a5193b20d0fcc546d314f45225c4f025&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Here is what falls under compliance rules-

Semiautomatic assault weapon. (a) Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as:

(1) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models), (IE the saigas)

.....(list of "ugly" non-shotgun guns here)........

(9) Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

......And here is the part that concerns us.........

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of

(1) A folding or telescoping stock,

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and

(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.

SO, in short, adding an extended magazine gives you one point. As long as you don't put (1), (2), or (4) on the Stoeger, the 922r parts list is not in effect. Hate to say it because we are making compliance parts, but our follower and disconnector have benefits over the factory parts anyhow, so I am not worried about giving up sales. But at least now the actual info is out here for display. In effect, don't put an AR stock and grip set on it and you are OK. The Benellis that get in trouble are the ones with the factory pistol grip stock. Add a big tube, and you now have the magic two features (2) and (3). That is why the SPAS went away as well (the cool shotgun from Jurassic Park). No longer importable.

Tom

It's up to prosecutors to prove you're guilty of anything which I don't think you are and there ain't no way the could prove that crap! Plus it wouldn't be worth their time.

The again some guys are scared to jay walk cause the could get a ticket.

If they start trying to enforce stuff like this at a 3 gun match it will be bunker bug out time for most of us.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

So the ATF letter, as printed higher up in this same thread in response to one of the forum members, says that in order for it to be compliant, it needs 2 US parts. But it was already imported without them. So, if it does not need SAW features to require compliance, why was it OK to import it?

Because it did not have more than 5 rounds as imported. Call your local ATF field office. They are very helpful and will walk you through it. I did it for the M2 when we were considering making some parts.

Jesse can say it does not matter and all that, but it is a law and in some people's opinion who actually know what they are talking about, a Federal Charge is not a trivial matter.

Edited March 6, 2014 by MarkCO

[EkuJustice]

I will agree with Jesse on this one. How many Leo even know what 922 is and how many have a clue what to look for or even how to tell. Never heard of it actually being enforced

[Jesse Tischauser]

I CHALLENGE anyone to find a case or person or whatever you call it that is remotely close to what we do that has been prosecuted and convicted with anything about the 922r compliance crap you are all worrying about.

[MarkCO]

I wonder if encouraging people to violate Federal law would be sufficient "probable cause" to an LEO/Prosecutor to get a search warrant.

That said, I did the research (it is not all that hard) and there have been prosecutions and a few convictions, and heck no I am not giving you my research. My friends who run Benellis who I have asked do have 922r compliant configurations. It is not hard to obey the law, even if you don't like it, or think it is silly. If you are putting on a tube, it is like $50 to $100 more to be in compliance.

[MarkCO]

I've called and spoken with Stoeger and Nordic Tech department . Both are saying the shotgun had to meet those requirements to be able to sold in this country. They cannot understand where this stuff gets started. Call them yourself

Because they came into the country with less than 5 rounds capacity. Maybe call FNH and ask them how and why the SLP with an 8 round magazine as sold in the US is 922r compliant. Just an example of a manufacturer doing it correct, to the letter of the law.

Edited March 6, 2014 by MarkCO

[Jesse Tischauser]

I cant follow this trash any longer.

[openclassterror]

Well, here is my plan. On MY shotgun, I am inserting 2 compliance parts. On any Stoeger shotgun we ASSEMBLE in our shop I will install compliance parts. If I sell someone a mag tube, it is up to them to decide if they want to risk it. Because, the wording is that it is unlawful to "ASSEMBLE" such a non-sporting gun. The only guy holding the risk is the guy who puts it together. Since I have no interest in risking MY livelihood, I will make sure that any gun I assemble does not contain that risk. YMMV

[BOOM]

Honestly If all of this rant were TRUE, Team Berenlli, Noveski, and some Army team would all be in the court rooms with head lines on Gun Illustrated warning all to be sure that any shotgun shooters with extended mag tube better comply with 922r code. Im with Jesse and Tom this is all speculation on the part of some to make an issue where there isn't one NOW, but keep stirirng it up it will become one.

[MarkCO]

Why don't you ask the guys on Team Noveski if their shotguns are 922r compliant? The AMU is running the VersaMax. Heck, ask Taran if he sends out non-compliant M2s.

Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Willful violation is a whole other issue. Ever ask yourself why the M4 and SKS community is so well informed about 922r compliance but 3Gunners are not? Dig a little deeper before you kick it to the curb. Knowledge is power.

[Amr]

To me it seems a small investment in two parts is worth not having to worry about it. I am just thankfull for the people who put forth the time and energy to build the parts needed to comply with the law. Thank you open class terror