Loose Tool Head on a New 650

[Larry White]

I took all the slop out of mine years ago, made a cross bar with shims and drilled&tapped it so I could lock it down tight. Turned a very good loader into a miserable POS. Took that all off and run it like Dillon meant for it to be, all has been good for years. My loader has had just about every mod you can think of done to it., some have stuck, most have hit the trash can. Wear in the tool head area is a non issue. Proper lube and maint, keep it adjusted and replace the very few wear items when needed and I dont think you can wear a 650 out. I lost track of the round count years ago but its a bunch, best shooting money I ever spent.-------Larry

[HOGRIDER]

Seems this thread has generated a lot of pertinent information!

Now I'm wondering why Dillon is going to offer billet aluminum toolheads for the XL650/500 machines? Is this just so they can offer some colors for bling? Can the stock cast units not be anodized/colored?

[KSH]

After decapping and sizing 500 cases, measuring the head and frame opening and reading all the comments here. I have come to the conclusion that my press is tight compared to others.

My retaining pins go in snugly, which restrict and forward and back or side to side motion. That means there is no self centering of the head.

My up and down movement is mainly at station 1 and can not be moved easily by hand. Station three is tight and my measurements confirm it.

So the movement is caused by torque not over all looseness.

[KSH]

Make sure you don't have any grease on the cam that would pull the case back out of the shell plate. Also, if you have stickier lube that could be contributing to the issue.

My issue was me short stroking and not fully pushing the case in and some burrs on the feed ramp.

A little polishing and retraining of the operator and the problem is gone.

[Doc Hunter]

Do a search on how David Tubb sets up his 550. You might be surprised. If you don't know David, you should.

[snowshooze]

Well...

I own a machine shop. Doesn't make me an expert.

But so long as the machine is consistant ( And it is ) is the only issue.

I have a whole pile of Whidden Heads, machined from solid billet.

And I have another pile of stock issue Dillon heads.

If you look at the Dillon heads, you will see they are cavity moulded, die-cast just to save the material they didn't need to buy. That means you don't have to buy it either.

Look at the Whidden heads, solid. Wall to wall. As much metal as one could possibly fit in there. Money is merely an object.

In the upstroke, slack is taken, on both. Same on the downstroke.

So long as it repeats, that is ok.

Side play and longetudal, they go where they go.

These pins you stake them in with limit that. Ya, there be slop. Both Dillon and Whidden

They talk about barrel harmonics... so long as the barrel is consistent, and vibrates the same way with every shot, if the load is the same, the vibes the same, the bullet exits at the same deflection of the vibration every time... because we do our part... we really don't care because we can pin it down and sink our teeth into it.

The long and short IMHO... zip. I have beautiful Whidden heads, and good 'ol Dillons.

Whidden's are stronger. Dillons are more than strong enough.

If you want to go to the end of the trail on accuracy, I think you want to go single stage, place every weighed and measured, trimmed and petted piece of brass in the die with the headstamp oriented exactly the same every time... check the barometer before starting and make sure it is at 29.92 or adjust for windage. Oh yeah.. 67 degrees F. Or allow for thermal expansion. Remember though, the differences of T.E. Differentially between lead, copper, or copper jackets over lead cores, don't forget jacket thickness and alloy...

In all, I think it IS a worthy subject. I believe the most critical is station timing. But, as that actually is not rigid... the several operations clock out against each other.

That case is going to be buried into that sizing die, and I bet it is going to have the last word.

Whidden is a CNC shop just as Dillon. SAMMI specs give me like + - .007" in a chamber, (You could toss a cat through there) and I couldn't make a living in a general machine shop such as mine if I were a gunsmith that could only hit that. I don't make ANYTHING with that much slop. ( Unless paid to )

I expect any other after-market heads are in the same boat.

Point being, are they consistent? My oldest lathe has .275" slop, but when I take it in the same direction, consistantly, every time... I am cool to .0005" consistantly. Take it to the bank. I do every day.

So, overkill is my trademark. I honestly cannot kick a single piece of dust on the Dillon tool-heads. I believe for all practical intents and purposes, they are everything they actually need to be.

But I run some fancy after-market heads... and I know I am better because I spent more.

If you are shooting for beers, dollars or prestige, go single stage, and I recommend my RCBS Big Max solid steel casting press. Anything O frame is premium., everything absolutely rigid. I do that for my big bore hunting rounds. Mostly because I am too cheap to tool up the Dillon for 20 measly rounds a year. And I have a Big Max.

There actually may be a bit more deflection in a die-cast Dillon head. But so long as it does the same thing, every time..

I don't see this as a big issue, I have not retired my Dillon heads. I started buying Whidden heads for .308 and up... but I couldn't outshooot the difference.

BUT whan my buddies come over... they see them aftermarket heads...

Well you guys know I would never rub it in.

This is just and merely my two cents worth. I am a lowly machine shop owner, and in Russia, they make convicts become Machinist's.

Until we can get some feedback from a long-range, bench rest proven medal winner, I can't say much, but I think they are all single stage. If the stakes are that high...

If your living depends on perfection ( Like mine ) well, 15 minutes a round on reloading? My income on the line? I got 15 minutes. BEERS on the line, I might have to start paying attention!

There ya go. I see your eyes glazing over.

Even I can't tell for sure.

Mark

Edited February 12, 2014 by snowshooze

[Pat Miles]

Mark,

Well put!

Pat

[snowshooze]

Seems this thread has generated a lot of pertinent information!

Now I'm wondering why Dillon is going to offer billet aluminum toolheads for the XL650/500 machines? Is this just so they can offer some colors for bling? Can the stock cast units not be anodized/colored?

Honestly, if I could make more money beating a dead horse, well, it would be a pretty simple decision.

[snowshooze]

Mark,

Well put!

Pat

Thanks Pat!

Actually, my antique Hollywood rigs get all the sexy work. Ah, the old dogs have seniority. My 220 swift stuff... paper killer... off vintage iron.

Poor old Big Max is stuck with the heavy lifting of belted Mags.

[snowshooze]

I should have started out with the basics in my 2 cents worth on this very interesting topic.

I actually enjoy this stuff!

But the whole conversation is based around the two schools of thought:

And I am unable to say which is better.

The two schools:

1, The floating head:

On the floating head, such as the Dillon XL machines, the Forrester Co-ax and the RCBS Progressives, there is no rigid stop on the case to die position.

There is to a minor degree, but only on the progressives where the respective positions are held in the tool-head.

In practice, on the progessives, the FL die of course will dictate at top stroke exact rotation of the shell plate.

As the shell plate isn't rigid... it could move just a bit. And the die plate wiggles a bit. Doesn't matter. It will find it's natural center.

On the single stage Co-ax, the dies just pop in and out, and they float as well.

I doubt too many of us would venture to kick dirt on the venerable Forrester Co-ax.

I had one for a while, loved it, and it turned out technically correct ammunition and seated bullets had minimal runnout between centers.

But I thought the press a bit light for belted Magnums. I was FL 300 Winmag and things were flexing a bit.

2. The rigid-head.

This is fixed school.

The idea being the die is dead center to the ram, and there is no opportunity for runnout error.

The best being the H frames, O frames, if they are quality and really are aligned. C frames are just fine too so long as they don't flex.

That is the long and short of it.

There are plenty of world class match shooters each school.

And I ain't one of those, or even close to it.

But it has been a great argument for longer than we have been around.

[Rico567]

I'm having a hard time seeing what this ongoing controversy is about. I had my 650 for some time before I read a thread about this vertical movement in the toolhead. Since yeah, I'd noticed it, I read a bit further, and then checked OALs in every round for a while, and they were all fine. I follow the reasoning of those who say 1. the press does all work (except priming) on the upward travel of the ram. 2. Where resizing, expand / powder drop, seat and crimp end up is all the same, with the toolhead pushed all the way UP against the frame. 3. Since that's what all of our adjustments are based on (top of travel), how can it be off?

As for things involving any wear in this movement, I just can't see where there's any abrasion / friction in this process, so I can't understand where the wear would arise.

As for shimming....well, I suppose it can't really hurt anything, but I see no reason in my own ammo to do anything.