KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I just added a 650 to my 20 year old 550. I have load over 20,000 rounds of 9 with my 550 plus others calibers. I have used the same tool head with the 9 and it is still tight in the frame. I started setting up the 650 tonight and am seeing a very noticeable up and and down movement of the tool head in the frame when sizing and decapping 9s. Is this normal? On another note, is it normal for some cases to follow the feed back after it is in the shell plate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Soon as the bench is finished, I'll be setting up an XL650 with the Whidden Clamped Toolhead: http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1333 Leave the toolhead slightly loose until all stations are "loaded", then do final tightening with the included screws. We set up one in my Son's XL650, and it works very well in keeping OAL's in check! HR Edited February 9, 2014 by HOGRIDER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 So the tolerances are so loose I will have to go to aftermarket heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Don't worry about the tool head moving up and down during the reloading process. The cartridges will force it up to the top of the slot in the frame and that's where it will stop EVERY TIME. If the dies are adjusted correctly. On the 650 everything happens on the upstroke so the de-capping and sizing in station 1 will be fine. The belling and powder drop will work fine in 2. The bullet seating in 3 and crimp in 4 will be fine also. You will have some folks telling you to buy this or do that to cure the non-existent problem with the tool head. Don't bother... just load. Take a good slow look at the cases as they are pushed into the shell plate slot at station one. If the shell plate timing is not just right the case will be pushed into the shell plate ahead of the slot. Then the slot rotates into place and the case, which is under pressure from the spring loaded case insert slide slams into the slot, hits the back of the slot and then rebounds back out of the slot. If this is what is happening the timing needs to be tweaked so the case is pushed forward when the shell plate slot is in position to accept the case. Pat Edited February 9, 2014 by Pat Miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm sure if you contact Dillon, they'll probably send a replacement. Aftermarket is just another option; not always necessary. All depends on how precise you need your reloads to be; especially with regards to OAL..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm sure if you contact Dillon, they'll probably send a replacement. Aftermarket is just another option; not always necessary. All depends on how precise you need your reloads to be; especially with regards to OAL..... Precise is not my issue. My concern is how much movement there would be after 20000 rounds. Thanks for the replys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) you dont have to buy a aftermarket tool head. you can use it like it is, or get this; http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230 I bought one and have 5 heads set up from one kit, all Dillon heads. the head does not move, I think it helped with OAL variations. oh yea, its only $30... jj Edited February 9, 2014 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDA Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I just added a 650 to my 20 year old 550. I have load over 20,000 rounds of 9 with my 550 plus others calibers. I have used the same tool head with the 9 and it is still tight in the frame. I started setting up the 650 tonight and am seeing a very noticeable up and and down movement of the tool head in the frame when sizing and decapping 9s. Is this normal? On another note, is it normal for some cases to follow the feed back after it is in the shell plate ? Make sure you don't have any grease on the cam that would pull the case back out of the shell plate. Also, if you have stickier lube that could be contributing to the issue. So the tolerances are so loose I will have to go to aftermarket heads? Not at all, the stock head works great, the aftermarket tool heads are a solution for a problem that really doesn't exist in my opinion. Have you measured your COAL on a batch of rounds using the same headstamp? Even with very mixed brass, my COAL doesn't vary too much and with the same headstamp, the variance is very small. Precise is not my issue. My concern is how much movement there would be after 20000 rounds. I wouldn't worry about it, I have zero discernible wear after 10,000 rounds in my 650 and they have a lifetime warranty for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm sure if you contact Dillon, they'll probably send a replacement. Aftermarket is just another option; not always necessary. All depends on how precise you need your reloads to be; especially with regards to OAL..... Precise is not my issue. My concern is how much movement there would be after 20000 rounds. Your making a mountain out of a molehill. I have easily 20K rounds through my 650 and have had zero problems that could be attributed to the looseness of the tool head in the frame. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOGRIDER Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) I'm sure if you contact Dillon, they'll probably send a replacement. Aftermarket is just another option; not always necessary. All depends on how precise you need your reloads to be; especially with regards to OAL..... Precise is not my issue. My concern is how much movement there would be after 20000 rounds. Your making a mountain out of a molehill. I have easily 20K rounds through my 650 and have had zero problems that could be attributed to the looseness of the tool head in the frame. Pat No, I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill....... IMO, the OP was concerned with " a very noticeable up and and down movement of the tool head in the frame", and I was simply pointing out there are aftermarket options available to users that like to make changes and/or improve the function of their machine. As you've noted in several posts in this forum, it is your opinion that the Uniquetek toolhead is NOT NEEDED and does not help. However, I see that Uniquetek is still selling this product; along with direct quotes from users/purchasers that it made a definite improvement in the ammo they were producing. Seems there is a lot of interest on this forum in making changes to the excellent Dillon products such as the live primer chute, the spent primer collection, the bearing/washer(s) to stabilize the shellplate, and Mark's roller follower, spring and ball, just to name a few. Does the XL650 need modifications to produce ammo? Definitely not! Are there users that like to make modifications to their machines? I think the "sticky" XL650 Tips and Tricks section, and thousands of posts in this Dillon Precision Reloading Equipment forum answer this. Best Regards, HR Edited February 9, 2014 by HOGRIDER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks for everybody's reply's. Welder/mechanic is part of my job description and very seldom is movement where there should not be movement is ever a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Make sure you don't have any grease on the cam that would pull the case back out of the shell plate. Also, if you have stickier lube that could be contributing to the issue. Thanks you, I will clean it up and try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Your making a mountain out of a molehill. I have easily 20K rounds through my 650 and have had zero problems that could be attributed to the looseness of the tool head in the frame. Pat I probably am. Seeing as there are aftermarket fixes, this is a common issue. So I'm not the only one. Edited February 9, 2014 by KSH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 No, I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill....... IMO, the OP was concerned with " a very noticeable up and and down movement of the tool head in the frame", and I was simply pointing out there are aftermarket options available to users that like to make changes and/or improve the function of their machine. As you've noted in several posts in this forum, it is your opinion that the Uniquetek toolhead is NOT NEEDED and does not help. However, I see that Uniquetek is still selling this product; along with direct quotes from users/purchasers that it made a definite improvement in the ammo they were producing. Seems there is a lot of interest on this forum in making changes to the excellent Dillon products such as the live primer chute, the spent primer collection, the bearing/washer(s) to stabilize the shellplate, and Mark's roller follower, spring and ball, just to name a few. Does the XL650 need modifications to produce ammo? Definitely not! Are there users that like to make modifications to their machines? I think the "sticky" XL650 Tips and Tricks section, and thousands of posts in this Dillon Precision Reloading Equipment forum answer this. Best Regards, HR Thanks for the link. Seeing as to how this will only be a dedicated to 9s, I will just shim the head tight. If I start changing calibers I will buy the after market heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 you dont have to buy a aftermarket tool head. you can use it like it is, or get this; http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230 I bought one and have 5 heads set up from one kit, all Dillon heads. the head does not move, I think it helped with OAL variations. oh yea, its only $30... jj Thanks for the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) If you want to stop movement at $0.00 cost,,drink a coke or Pepsi in the can.When empty cut the can open flatten it out and cut a small strip 3/8" wide and slide it in the top of the tool head,don't go past the pin hole.I guarantee this to work. I did this to mine years ago still using the first little strips oh yea put one on each side...I've been loading on my 650 for about ten years and have loaded a ton of bullets on it about five years with the little coke can on top of the head. Oh yea I don't think it needed it I, WE,,always try to reengineer stuff !!! I would not buy the after market parts,the reason people make them is because people buy them,,Not that they are needed !, Edited February 9, 2014 by EEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I loaded more than 20,000 rounds a year on 650's for a long time and always used stock tool heads until the GSI bulletfeeder/tool head came along. I am with Pat, it doesn't matter. I generally don't fix what isn't broke but if I found it to make any difference (you can test it yourself using EEH's method) I would just buy a helicoil thread repair kit and use machine screws instead of the pins. If you think the 650 has a lot of tool head movement you should see how much my 1050's have, just doesn't matter if it moves the same amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Hunter Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Having a tool head "float" some is not a bad thing - every station will find its center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I bought a whidden tool head that does not have the screws in it just because I needed a second tool head so I thought I might as well try it. Then I shimmed it with some thin aluminum like another poster did to try to tighten things up including my oal. Then I started having lot's of problems with station one because I was running a U-die. That die is not nearly as forgiving as the large mouth Dillon dies and alignment is critical. While I THINK I noticed an improvement in oal it was marginal at best and just not worth the speed and convenience that I gave up. So I unshimmed the tool head and went back to loading and my oal's are just fine. The Whidden seems to be a hair tighter in the press but it still moves a little. If you are that worried about it that is as far as I would recommend going. If you absolutely feel the need for a TIGHT tool head then don't waste the money and just shim the Dillon. It will get really really tight for the cost of a pop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Having a tool head "float" some is not a bad thing - every station will find its center. Side to side and forward and back is float. Up and down is loose. I will set it up and get all stations full, then when ram is in the up position and centered, I will shim it tight. There will be no movement then and I can find something else to pizz and moan about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singlestackman Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If it bothers you, shim it up with cheap autozone feeler gauges. Walla, nice and tight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSH Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 If it bothers you, shim it up with cheap autozone feeler gauges. Walla, nice and tight! Bingo , that was my plan with a old set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob DuBois Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm with Pat on this one. Had issues in OAL in 9mm minor using 160 gn lead bullets. Ended up using a Lee seating die with a flat insert. I can keep OAL tight now. The tool head movement is nothing to worry about it only helps the cases align in the tool head. There are a few tricks to help the 650 run smoother taking the play out of the tool head is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Having a tool head "float" some is not a bad thing - every station will find its center. Side to side and forward and back is float. Up and down is loose. In my opinion you have that backward. Considering that the machine is based on an up and down stroke, the up and down is float. Try pulling the tool head locating pins, moving the toolhead outward .060" and see what happens in station one. If there was the same .060" in the vertical movement of the toolhead in the frame the machine would still operate as it should, just with a longer vertical stroke. As my good friend Wayne Johnston says... "an elegant solution to a non-existent problem". CYa, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDA Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I agree, allowing the head some movement (forward and aft, side to side, up and down) allows the cases to align with the dies/funnel and ultimately, when the stroke is complete, everything maxes out at the same height. I too went through the process of thinking I needed to remove the "slop" which at first seemed counterintuitive to me to have the amount of movement in the head but as Dillon has pointed out, it is by design and it took some actual hands on loading to determine that the movement was intentional and improves loading efficiency and does not negatively impact quality (i.e., COAL). I have made other small improvements to my Dillon (spent primer colection, shellplate bearing, live primer catch, etc.) but the head is original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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