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New Colorado Magazine Laws & Limited/Open Division


obsessiveshooter

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I just read the new rules and rule 3.3.1 states:

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest."

In Colorado we just had a new law take effect that limits magazine capacity to 15 rounds, unless you owned it before the ban took effect. I can keep and use all my hi-cap mags but I cannot acquire any new ones.

So, does this legal-for-me-to-own condition allow me to use the mags while shooting Limited? Well, that's what I'm assuming we're all going to be doing, which I'm happy with. The investment everyone has made in their equipment is going to cause everyone to cling to this idea of there being a gray area. I'd like it that way, but I realize that no new shooters will ever be able to get started in Limited or particularly Open and be competitive unless they already owned the hi-cap mags. If somehow we don't repeal these dumb laws, it seems at some point we will have to switch to the 15 round limit.

I am a very very new person to competitive shooting so I'd like to hear what some more experienced guys have to say.

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How is this new law going to affect new shooters who may not have owned higher capacity mags before the law went into effect. They will obviously be at a huge disadvantage to those who legally owned 19-20 round mags.

Will USPSA have to put limits on mags according to various state laws?

Pat

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And what about competitors from other states that want to cross state lines to shoot?

I doubt we Texans can legally cross into Colorado with our big sticks. That means we will be required to buy a new batch of low round count mags just to shoot those matches.

I suspect it will be the clubs responsibility to adhere to both state law and USPSA rules.

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You can come to Colorado with your hi-cap mags. We just can't buy them from you. So, if you did come to shoot a match and we were following these USPSA rules to the letter, you'd just load to 15.

Okay, that's fair and reasonable.

What happens if you travel to the Nationals. New shooters won't have any hicap magazines as they are outlawed in Colorado. How can they compete against those shooters who have them. I'm talking about 20-21 round Limited mags and 30-31 Open mags.

Pat

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I am from Colorado and I can tell you from first hand experience that none of the local USPSA clubs will be enforcing an artifical 15 round magazine limit. With the grandfathering verbage in the new law there is no way for clubs to validate if a shooter owned a high capacity magazine before or after the new law went into effect. It is not the USPSA clubs responsibility to enforce this new law nor should it be.

Now if a blanket 15 round or less capacity law was passed,meaning that everyone applies with no grandfathering, then we would have to adhere to the 15 round limit at local USPSA matches. But that is not how this new law was written.

How this new law is written, if a gun owner did not own the high capacity magazines before July 1st 2013, then it is illegal to own or possess them. So if a new shooter didn't already own 16+ round magazines before that date they are stuck with owning 15 or less round magazines. Basically making them uncompetitive in Limited or Open divisions. But they can still compete unhindered in all other divisions.

Will this new mag ban law negatively impact new colorado shooters getting into USPSA? Yes. To what extent the impact will be is still yet to be seen. Hopefully this new mag ban will be overturned before a serious negative impact forms.

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Now if a blanket 15 round or less capacity law was passed,meaning that everyone applies with no grandfathering, then we would have to adhere to the 15 round limit at local USPSA matches. But that is not how this new law was written.

How this new law is written, if a gun owner did not own the high capacity magazines before July 1st 2013, then it is illegal to own or possess them. So if a new shooter didn't already own 16+ round magazines before that date they are stuck with owning 15 or less round magazines. Basically making them uncompetitive in Limited or Open divisions. But they can still compete unhindered in all other divisions.

Will this new mag ban law negatively impact new colorado shooters getting into USPSA? Yes. To what extent the impact will be is still yet to be seen. Hopefully this new mag ban will be overturned before a serious negative impact forms.

So if not to give new competitors the ability to compete on a level playing field against other shooters what was the point of USPSA passing this rule? I thought it was to keep a level playing field for all competitors in restricted states, without those new competitors having to commit a crime by acquiring high capacity magazines. I wonder what, if any impact these magazine restrictions will have on classifiers(Open Division)?

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The purpose in USPSA passing that rule is to enable match directors to amend the magazine capacity limits to adhere to hard defined local or state laws that limit magazine capacity. As I stated before, if a blanket 15 round or less capacity law was passed, meaning that everyone applies with no grandfathering, then we would have to adhere to the 15 round limit at local USPSA matches. But that is not how this new Colorado law was written.

Because of the grandfathering clause in the new Colorado magazine ban law its not practical to expect the local club match staff to "Enforce" this law by restricting certain shooters from using certain capacity magazines. All we can do is hope that the shooters attending a Colorado USPSA match are adhering to the defined state laws and let them shoot whatever they want. This is really no different than local clubs not checking to see if the shooters attending matches are convicted felons or whatever else that would keep them from owning a firearm in the first place.

Edited by CHA-LEE
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I strongly disagree with your reasoning. 3.3.1 could not be much clearer.

Colorado has a mag restriction. Matches there must adhere to the law.

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest."

If a shooter shows up and wants to compete legally and he only has newly aquired 15 round mags then the match should respect that and abide by the laws and the RULES.

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I strongly disagree with your reasoning. 3.3.1 could not be much clearer.

Colorado has a mag restriction. Matches there must adhere to the law.

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest."

If a shooter shows up and wants to compete legally and he only has newly aquired 15 round mags then the match should respect that and abide by the laws and the RULES.

The way I read it... this applies to NJ, NY.. others.. but not Colorado or California (as examples).. since the law does not restrict the use of magazines to 15, it just stops people from buying magazines greater than that

but that's just my 1.5 cents worth

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I strongly disagree with your reasoning. 3.3.1 could not be much clearer.

Colorado has a mag restriction. Matches there must adhere to the law.

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest."

If a shooter shows up and wants to compete legally and he only has newly aquired 15 round mags then the match should respect that and abide by the laws and the RULES.

Local MDs can do what they want, BUT how do you keep it fair if a new shooter shows up and only has 15 round mags. I understand there is a grandfather clause for owning hicap mags, but USPSA is pretty clear in the rules.

I agree with my good friend the "Sarge".

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I strongly disagree with your reasoning. 3.3.1 could not be much clearer.

Colorado has a mag restriction. Matches there must adhere to the law.

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest."

If a shooter shows up and wants to compete legally and he only has newly aquired 15 round mags then the match should respect that and abide by the laws and the RULES.

The way I read it... this applies to NJ, NY.. others.. but not Colorado or California (as examples).. since the law does not restrict the use of magazines to 15, it just stops people from buying magazines greater than that

but that's just my 1.5 cents worth

If you don't apply the rule to Colorado...are you not encourging folks to break the law and acquire hi-cap mags!

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I strongly disagree with your reasoning. 3.3.1 could not be much clearer.Colorado has a mag restriction. Matches there must adhere to the law. "In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest." If a shooter shows up and wants to compete legally and he only has newly aquired 15 round mags then the match should respect that and abide by the laws and the RULES.

The way I read it... this applies to NJ, NY.. others.. but not Colorado or California (as examples).. since the law does not restrict the use of magazines to 15, it just stops people from buying magazines greater than thatbut that's just my 1.5 cents worth

Maybe, but kali absolutely restricts anyone else coming into the state with a hi cap mag. can pretty much guarantee you clubs in my old state will not be paying attention to 3.3.1.

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I strongly disagree with your reasoning. 3.3.1 could not be much clearer.

Colorado has a mag restriction. Matches there must adhere to the law.

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest."

If a shooter shows up and wants to compete legally and he only has newly aquired 15 round mags then the match should respect that and abide by the laws and the RULES.

The way I read it... this applies to NJ, NY.. others.. but not Colorado or California (as examples).. since the law does not restrict the use of magazines to 15, it just stops people from buying magazines greater than that

but that's just my 1.5 cents worth

If you don't apply the rule to Colorado...are you not encourging folks to break the law and acquire hi-cap mags!

encouraging? no.. will some people do it, absolutely, but they might anyways, regardless of USPSA

Limited 10, Production, Revolver, Single Stack.. there are options.. I can definitely see Open 10, or Open 15 on the horizon

California has had this issue for 15 years?

The way the rule is written.. it says

"In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity"

and that's not the case for Colorado

Whatever happens, hopefully, it won't imped the clubs and membership

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I agree with Sarge...the state law and the USPSA rule are two different entities.

State law has a grandfather clause ALLOWING you to OWN hi-cap magazines if purchased them before the law took affect. Owning and using are two different animals. The state law doesn't care one bit about competition rules.

The USPSA rule says <Intent here, not actual wording> that the state's maximum capacity should dictate that everyone in the match should/must use the same capacity to ensure equal competitiveness.

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I agree with Sarge...the state law and the USPSA rule are two different entities.

State law has a grandfather clause ALLOWING you to OWN hi-cap magazines if purchased them before the law took affect. Owning and using are two different animals. The state law doesn't care one bit about competition rules.

The USPSA rule says <Intent here, not actual wording> that the state's maximum capacity should dictate that everyone in the match should/must use the same capacity to ensure equal competitiveness.

I disagree with sarge. Colorado and california don't have a maximum capacity.

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Ok, let me approach this from a different angle to see if it makes more sense for some people. In Colorado the new 16+ round magazine capacity ban applies to acquiring or purchasing new high capacity magazines after July 1st 2013, not limiting the use of high capacity magazines. There is nothing that states you can't USE or BORROW a high capacity magazine past the cut in date even if you or another person didn't "own" it before the July 1st 2013 date. Then there is the whole grandfathering rats nest. The new law basically states that if you owned 16+ round magazines before July 1st 2013 you are grandfathered into legally owning those high capacity magazines before the cut in date of the law. As we all know many magazines do NOT have manufacturing date stamps on them so proving that a magazine was purchased after the July 1st 2013 date is impossible. Obviously if a magazine does have a manufacturing date stamp that can be validated or if a totally new design of firearm/magazine was created after the July 1st 2013 date it will obviously apply to the restrictions defined by the law.

I also want to point out that given all of the loop holes and confusion around how this new law is written the Colorado local and state law enforcement agencies can't even define how this new law will be enforced. There have been ZERO accounts of it being enforced as most law enforcement agencies in Colorado don't want to even touch this law with a 10 foot pole.

If the local and state level law enforcement agencies can't even enforce this law properly, how on earth can you expect a volunteer driven USPSA club to properly enforce it? The answer to that, is that this new magazine capacity law will NOT be enforced at the USPSA club level.

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I thought 3.3.1 was in response to NY and the exemption for LE. I thought it was to make it where non-LE weren't at a competitive disadvantage.

I dont know if thats a part of it, but the way I understand it is so that everybody is at a level playing field.

so , all the current guys in CO can run around with their 25-30 round big sticks in open division, but the guy who wants to start playing today , or tomorrow, or next month - with newly purchased equipment, is limited to 15 rounds.

.....and you are making the argument that this is " fair " ?

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The way I read it... this applies to NJ, NY.. others.. but not Colorado or California (as examples).. since the law does not restrict the use of magazines to 15, it just stops people from buying magazines greater than that

but that's just my 1.5 cents worth

OK so why do you think this would only apply to NY & NJ? If all magazines above the legal limit are forbidden, not grandfathered in, why would USPSA feel the need to put in this new rule, huh?

Kalifornia does indeed have a magazine limit of 10 rounds period, since 2000 from state law. Yes there were ways to get parts kits, etc., but if you assembled those into functional magazine in the state of CA you were committing a crime(A Felony). If you take into consideration the 1994 Clinton assault weapon ban,that also blocked the sale of magazines of greater then 10 round capacity, and look at the age of some of the younger shooters(Limited and Open)in CA, well I will just leave it at that. >.>

This topic was already discussed at great length awhile ago, in this very forum, and there was never a conclusive answer given. Perhaps an e-mail to John A. is in order to actually get a clear idea to what they had in mind?

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I thought 3.3.1 was in response to NY and the exemption for LE. I thought it was to make it where non-LE weren't at a competitive disadvantage.

If this is the case then how is someone with grandfathered in magazines showing up, different then law enforcement personal showing up, from a competitive advantage perspective?

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Once again...... If the local or state law enforcement agencies can't even decide on how the new high capacity magazine ban law will be interpreted so a decision can be made on how it will be enforced, how can we expect a USPSA club to do so? Every single Colorado USPSA club contacted their local sheriff to request guidance on how this law should or will be enforced and no definitive answers were ever given. Until the Colorado local or state law enforcement agencies can provide a definitive answer to how the law will be interpreted and enforced the local USPSA matches will continue to function as if the law does not exist.

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Once again...... If the local or state law enforcement agencies can't even decide on how the new high capacity magazine ban law will be interpreted so a decision can be made on how it will be enforced, how can we expect a USPSA club to do so? Every single Colorado USPSA club contacted their local sheriff to request guidance on how this law should or will be enforced and no definitive answers were ever given. Until the Colorado local or state law enforcement agencies can provide a definitive answer to how the law will be interpreted and enforced the local USPSA matches will continue to function as if the law does not exist.

Scenario.

The Date is 2/6/14

I live in CO.

I do not currently own any equipment.

I want to shoot open or limited

Can I go to the local gun store and buy a magazine greater then 15 rounds?

Edited by alecmc
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The way I read it... this applies to NJ, NY.. others.. but not Colorado or California (as examples).. since the law does not restrict the use of magazines to 15, it just stops people from buying magazines greater than that

but that's just my 1.5 cents worth

OK so why do you think this would only apply to NY & NJ? If all magazines above the legal limit are forbidden, not grandfathered in, why would USPSA feel the need to put in this new rule, huh?

Some people, Law Enforcement, can have the magazines, it's to limit them as well..

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