Loading Defense Rounds

[Alan550]

Most experts? What, Internet Keyboard Commandos?

I'd love for one person to ever show me a case where someone was prosecuted specifically for using properly reloaded self defense ammo. Let's face it, if you are shooting another person in self defense, you aren't intending them less harm by using factory rounds versus reloaded rounds.

Many 1,000s of police departments use Speer Gold Dot, that is what I use. I'd love to see an attorney successfully prove that someone meant more harm with their Speer Gold Dot hand load than they did with Speer Gold Dot +P factory round.

I have loaded rounds with Speer Gold Dot and Hornady XTP. Both loads were loaded to mimic their off the shelf counterparts and you could hold my loaded rounds next to factory rounds and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and you could run them through the chrono and get the same results within statistically insignificant standard deviation. If I am involved in a shoot, the least of my concerns is what round I used.

Read nearly any of Massad Ayoob's writings and you'll find references to being sued for using reloaded ammo in a shooting. I agree with Steve RA about loading some practice ammo that duplicates the velocity/recoil of your defense ammo and use factory stuff for carry purposes.

Factory ammo uses a different powder than you can get, and in testing the ammo after the fact, they can determine how far away from the person you were when they were shot, within reasonable parameters. Ayoob even recommends writing down the lot # of the factory ammo in case there's any question of what you used because factories change the powder sometimes that gets put in their stuff.

Alan~^~

Edited February 5, 2014 by Alan550

[JimmyZip]

According to most experts it is not a good idea. If by some chance you have to use that ammo to kill someone you will be accused by the opposing attorney of manufacturing deadly ammo that goes far beyond what you really need or something similar to that. Most recommend you find out what the local police force is using and then use that. There's pros and cons on both side. Take your choice and chances.

The ONLY reason this keeps getting pushed is because of totally flawed logic. NOT once in American legal history is there a case where handloaded ammo, or even a modified trigger changed the outcome. The ONLY case Ayoob can come up with is the case of a man who murdered his wife and tried to assert it was suicide with "low powered" handloads. COMPLETE MYTH! STOP perpetuating ignorance!

And yes, I am a court certified ballistics and shooting reconstruction expert.

I too concur with The-Vigilante . . . carry factory ammo. Just common sense to eliminate that possibility, don't you think?

In my 65 years of life, I have found those who boast about being experts are the ones I trust the least.

You obviously know little about MarkCO. Not only as certified an EXPERT as you can be, but also a practical and intelligent person. Don't jump on the hysteria band wagon guys. Look at the precedent in the case stated and really try and see where that relates to what the OP was talking about. I just figured that the best ammo, that is the most potent/deadly would probably be a commercially loaded cartridge. If I could make one that was better, than I would have no issue loading them up. Who is to say that the ammo that you have loaded is for any purpose definitively?

If it worries you, then do not.

If it does not, load away.

[MarkCO]

Read nearly any of Massad Ayoob's writings and you'll find references to being sued for using reloaded ammo in a shooting. I agree with Steve RA about loading some practice ammo that duplicates the velocity/recoil of your defense ammo and use factory stuff for carry purposes.

Alan~^~

That is his opinion, but there is NO basis in FACT or case law. The FACT is the most important issues. Ayoob has passed by the facts and gone to personal opinion without a rigorous analysis of the relevant issues.

Just think it through with no bias. The Media calls the AR-15 a murderous machine gun? It is? There has been a huge effort to popularize the AR-15, even by rebranding it the MSR. Is the AR-15 anymore lethal than the .30-30 (answer for yourself, not here please). If I pull the trigger on a .500 S&W or a .25ACP to defend my life, am I somehow evil with one and fine with the other? Is not the "intent" the same with either, to protect innocent life? Does a handload in .25ACP suddenly make me a blood-thirsty vigilante?

These kinds of flawed arguments, which a LOT of people have bought into without really thinking them through are destructive. If the "gun culture" right or wrong, believes something, then it makes it a less problematic for an aggressive prosecutor to paint a person as deviant, or have intent to inflict "more harm." Attonrneys are advocates for their clients, and their arguments will not always make sense, but will usually be crafted to get the desired result for their client, defense or plaintiff.

Intent is a huge portion of legal arguments and even charges.

Follow this.

Prosecutor: "Alan, I see you shot your attacker with a .45ACP, Why do you carry a .45ACP"

Alan: "I believe it is a better round and it will put a man down faster than a 9mm."

Prosecutor: "So the 9mm, which our Police use is not good enough for you, you need something that kills better?"

Alan: "Well I..."

Prosecutor: "Withdrawn, no more questions."

If rolling your own buys you liability, then so does using anything more than dialing 911 to call the police. These arguments are foolish at best and they can be potentially damaging given the total anti-gun culture in some locales. Unfounded "opinion" that has no basis in fact should not be used.

Ayoob also advocates tossing money at people who may confront you...do you do that too? If you don't, have you not bought extra liability because you did not follow Ayoob's prescription?

Please people, think!

[MarkCO]

Just for the record, this is an excerpt from my CCW course textbook, which well over 5,000 students have gone through...

So, you say, 9mm or .45? You’ll not get an answer from the authors. What we will say, is shoot the most potent caliber and effective load you can handle in your carry gun.

Once you decide on a gun/caliber combination, the real works begins. Finding the best carry load in your caliber can be a daunting task. In most defensively suited caliber’s, there are at least 100 good loads to consider. What works best in my gun may not be best in yours.

We want to consider recoil, energy, and velocity as a group. Bullet weight and barrel length come into play here. Also, the design of the load. Primary and secondary recoil impulses affect different people differently and even like weighted rounds may have different levels of the two impulses. High velocity and energy are generally good, but if the recoil is too severe, another load must be considered.

Noise level and flash are important for recovery and damage to you as a shooter and they are often not even considered. Remember that if you are in a defensive shooting, you will most likely not have eye and ear protection and you will be in low light conditions.

Most premium ammo will have decent accuracy out of well maintained handguns, but it should be compared, the physiological effect alone may make one brand better in your mind. Consistency is also very important. Large deviations can affect function of the weapon, especially under stress. We want the gun to do the exact same thing every time we pull the trigger.

Handloads are generally not a good idea. Although the authors dismiss the notion that it might get you court liability, factory ammo that is carefully designed will balance all the components better than we can at our presses. Also, the occurrence of jams and stoppages is lower with factory ammo than with handloads.

[motosapiens]

Read nearly any of Massad Ayoob's writings and you'll find references to being sued for using reloaded ammo in a shooting. I agree with Steve RA about loading some practice ammo that duplicates the velocity/recoil of your defense ammo and use factory stuff for carry purposes.

Factory ammo uses a different powder than you can get, and in testing the ammo after the fact, they can determine how far away from the person you were when they were shot, within reasonable parameters. Ayoob even recommends writing down the lot # of the factory ammo in case there's any question of what you used because factories change the powder sometimes that gets put in their stuff.

Alan~^~

if you carefully read all ayoob's writings, you will discover that he is offering an opinion, with virtually zero evidence to back it up. He says it's possible, but can't come up with actual examples.

I advise people to educate themselves and make their own decisions. The poltiical climate where you live is important too. In many states, you will never see a prosecutor unless it is a bad or very marginal shoot, so I would put my effort into making sure I only shoot people who *really* need shooting.

Edited February 5, 2014 by motosapiens

[bajadudes]

Aside from all the legal mumbo jumbo The OP, I think, was just looking for advice on mimicking SD loads for practice. I think that's fine and I also think that for actual carry use the real stuff from a big name SD manufacturer. Even I will not make and sell SD ammo advertised for SD

So getting to the OP. I did the below 2-3 years ago I forget.

Reloading Experiments in 40 S&W with Speer Gold Dot 180's

In looking at the insane prices they charge for gold dot I thought there is no way I want to pay that much. I picked me up 300 Speer Gold Dot projectiles in 40 S&W180gr and 300 in 9MM 124 gr and set myself down to start playing with the 40 1st.

To establish a bench mark I shot 2 rounds of the factory Gold Dot 180gr out of my inox Vertec 96 and observed the following:

A moderate fireball and 1116 fps on the 1st shot and 1131 fps. on the second shot.

Factory specs say 1025fps from a 4" barrel.

The round was pretty snappy but manageable


I have 3 powders available to me right now in large quantities. Clays, Power Pistol and VV 3N38.

POWER PISTOL

Power pistol loading data indicates that a 40 S&W 180gr SPGD JHP with a 1.12 OAL has a max powder load of 7.2gr and an estimated velocity of 1,013 fps. from a 4" barrel.

I shot 7 rounds of 7.2 gr. with an OAL of 1.145 (+-.03) and achieved a min velocity of 1039 fps. a max velocity of 1082 and an average velocity of 1060.7 fps.

Not bad but the fireball was substantial and the recoil was fairly hard.
Since my OAL is longer than standard I can probably push it a bit more and get in the 1100 range consistently and safely. Not sure if I want to try since I think for mimicking defensive situation it would be better to minimize the fireball.


CLAYS

Clays is kinda dicey and spiky so I am not willing to push it but it is nice since there is barely any flash and it's clean. I had it and so why not try it.

Clays loading data indicates that a 40 S&W 180gr Hornady XTP with a 1.125 OAL has a max pwder load of 3.5gr and estimated velocity of 847fps. from a 4" barrel.

I shot 5 rounds of 3.5 gr. with an OAL of 1.145 (+-.03) and achieved a min velocity of 784.4 fps. a max velocity of 809.3 and an average velocity of 797.56 fps.

No noticeable fireball and the recoil was soft and very manageable.

It would be tempting to try upping this charge but given Clays well deserved reputation and that I am shooting out of a stock Beretta I don't think I want to be the bang test dummy.


VV 3N38

I could find no loading data for this powder with any 180gr bullet. All data for a 180gr JHP had 3n37 listed. It noted a powder load of 5.9gr @ 1.126 OAL with 994 fps, and a max powder load of 6.2gr for an estimated velocity of 1078 fps.

Oddly I did notice that they listed a 200gr TMJ bullet with VV 3n38 powder. It noted a powder load of 6.9gr for 997 fps with a max load of 7.3gr for 1038 fps.

That seemed strange to me since n38 is a slower powder than the n37. Why would they not list VV 3N38 as suitable for a 180gr bullet?

In any case I decided to try my VV3N38 powder at a powder load of 7.2 grains w/OAL of 1.145 (+-4) and observed the following velocities in 4 shots; min 792, max 854, average 828,17 fps

No discernible fireball and very soft recoil.

VV 3n38 is a great clean relatively slow powder so I spoke with someone who has shot hundreds of thousands of rounds with this powder in many combinations. He was as surprised as I was at the slow speed. We both agreed to up the charge by 2 grains to 9.2. We think we can get it safely up to about 1100 fps with minimum fireball and better recoil than the Power Pistol.

Subsequent test:

VV3N38, 180g SGD, OAL 1.147

8.5g FPS: 1099,1132,1075, 1091, 1079, Low to no flash better recoil than PP

9g FPS: 1166, 1163,1133,1155,1149 Low to no flash

Then I got some HS-6, 180 SGD OAL 1.121

7g FPS: 1217,1219,1194,1224,1226 Low to no flash nice and manageable recoil tad better than with VV

6.8 FPS: 1177,1170,1176,1150,1141,1178 same observation

I think the HS-6 with the golddot 180g JHP would be my choice for building a round that is closest to the performance of a factory 180g SGDJHP

Anyway just my observations when I explored the topic a few years ago.

Edited February 5, 2014 by bajadudes

[Lifeislarge]

Yikes.... I totally agree with MarkCO's analogy when comparing the lethality of firearms and calibers. In Florida, it makes no difference to the law if I carry a .44 magnum like Dirty Harry, or an LCP. As long as I can hide it, I can carry it. There is no distinction, as far as I can tell in the way the laws are written, between hand loads and commercial loads for the purpose of defense. In suggesting that commercial ammo is "more legal" than hand loaded ammo, I see no basis to that argument. The only liability I can see as legitimate is if I load ammo improperly, and it causes somebody else harm that shoots it, not who's on the receiving end of the round in question. And in all honesty, if my life or family's life is in danger, I don't give a rat's ass what happens afterwards, as long as we're all safe and healthy.

[Lifeislarge]

Aside from all the legal mumbo jumbo The OP, I think, was just looking for advice on mimicking SD loads for practice. I think that's fine and I also think that for actual carry use the real stuff from a big name SD manufacturer. Even I will not make and sell SD ammo advertised for SD

So getting to the OP. I did the below 2-3 years ago I forget.

Reloading Experiments in 40 S&W with Speer Gold Dot 180's

In looking at the insane prices they charge for gold dot I thought there is no way I want to pay that much. I picked me up 300 Speer Gold Dot projectiles in 40 S&W180gr and 300 in 9MM 124 gr and set myself down to start playing with the 40 1st.

To establish a bench mark I shot 2 rounds of the factory Gold Dot 180gr out of my inox Vertec 96 and observed the following:

A moderate fireball and 1116 fps on the 1st shot and 1131 fps. on the second shot.

Factory specs say 1025fps from a 4" barrel.

The round was pretty snappy but manageable

I have 3 powders available to me right now in large quantities. Clays, Power Pistol and VV 3N38.

POWER PISTOL

Power pistol loading data indicates that a 40 S&W 180gr SPGD JHP with a 1.12 OAL has a max powder load of 7.2gr and an estimated velocity of 1,013 fps. from a 4" barrel.

I shot 7 rounds of 7.2 gr. with an OAL of 1.145 (+-.03) and achieved a min velocity of 1039 fps. a max velocity of 1082 and an average velocity of 1060.7 fps.

Not bad but the fireball was substantial and the recoil was fairly hard.

Since my OAL is longer than standard I can probably push it a bit more and get in the 1100 range consistently and safely. Not sure if I want to try since I think for mimicking defensive situation it would be better to minimize the fireball.

CLAYS

Clays is kinda dicey and spiky so I am not willing to push it but it is nice since there is barely any flash and it's clean. I had it and so why not try it.

Clays loading data indicates that a 40 S&W 180gr Hornady XTP with a 1.125 OAL has a max pwder load of 3.5gr and estimated velocity of 847fps. from a 4" barrel.

I shot 5 rounds of 3.5 gr. with an OAL of 1.145 (+-.03) and achieved a min velocity of 784.4 fps. a max velocity of 809.3 and an average velocity of 797.56 fps.

No noticeable fireball and the recoil was soft and very manageable.

It would be tempting to try upping this charge but given Clays well deserved reputation and that I am shooting out of a stock Beretta I don't think I want to be the bang test dummy.

VV 3N38

I could find no loading data for this powder with any 180gr bullet. All data for a 180gr JHP had 3n37 listed. It noted a powder load of 5.9gr @ 1.126 OAL with 994 fps, and a max powder load of 6.2gr for an estimated velocity of 1078 fps.

Oddly I did notice that they listed a 200gr TMJ bullet with VV 3n38 powder. It noted a powder load of 6.9gr for 997 fps with a max load of 7.3gr for 1038 fps.

That seemed strange to me since n38 is a slower powder than the n37. Why would they not list VV 3N38 as suitable for a 180gr bullet?

In any case I decided to try my VV3N38 powder at a powder load of 7.2 grains w/OAL of 1.145 (+-4) and observed the following velocities in 4 shots; min 792, max 854, average 828,17 fps

No discernible fireball and very soft recoil.

VV 3n38 is a great clean relatively slow powder so I spoke with someone who has shot hundreds of thousands of rounds with this powder in many combinations. He was as surprised as I was at the slow speed. We both agreed to up the charge by 2 grains to 9.2. We think we can get it safely up to about 1100 fps with minimum fireball and better recoil than the Power Pistol.

Subsequent test:

VV3N38, 180g SGD, OAL 1.147

8.5g FPS: 1099,1132,1075, 1091, 1079, Low to no flash better recoil than PP

9g FPS: 1166, 1163,1133,1155,1149 Low to no flash

Then I got some HS-6, 180 SGD OAL 1.121

7g FPS: 1217,1219,1194,1224,1226 Low to no flash nice and manageable recoil tad better than with VV

6.8 FPS: 1177,1170,1176,1150,1141,1178 same observation

I think the HS-6 with the golddot 180g JHP would be my choice for building a round that is closest to the performance of a factory 180g SGDJHP

Anyway just my observations when I explored the topic a few years ago.

This is good information. I am going to order some projectiles and do some experimentation of my own. I figure on getting 100 of each weight and see what shoots the best compared to the factory rounds I'm using. The one thing that I have gleaned from this discussion is that I need to go to the range at night, and shoot my defensive ammo without tinted glasses, and hearing protection in order to see what the total effect would be in the worst case scenario. Something I had never considered.

[RDA]

In my limited experience it seems that Prosecutors will skew any evidence in order to achieve a conviction. The courts, civil and criminal alike are rife with ludicrous theories that do nothing but confuse a jury. If I choose to carry for defense, I also accept the potential repercussions of using said firearm in a defense situation. If it ever comes to that, I can assure you that A, the circumstances will warrant it, and B, there will be no confusion as to my intentions towards the final outcome. If I were to use my gun in a defense situation I want the most reliable and most lethal results.

My only aim in this thread was to see if there was an alternative to the more expensive defense ammo and if it was accepted and common practice to use said alternative (ie. hand loads). I think that the direction am leaning towards is to develop a practice round that is as close to the commercial ammo that I carry now. I have a chrono and most of the load data (velocity) is available online. Then again, I am in Florida....

In that case, if you carry Gold Dots you can buy the same exact bullet to handload. If you carry Hornady TAP with their XTP hollow points you can also buy those OR a less expensive version of it which is their HAP line. As an FYI, both of the Hornadys have an excellent reputation for accuracy.

Keep in mind though, Hornady HAP are not expanding self defense bullets, only the XTP are. The HAP would make for a good practice bullet if you carry the XTP, but don't confuse the two for self defense purposes.

[MrVvrroomm]

I have rolled my own

[Shadowrider]

Keep in mind though, Hornady HAP are not expanding self defense bullets, only the XTP are. The HAP would make for a good practice bullet if you carry the XTP, but don't confuse the two for self defense purposes.

Yes! This is what I meant. You did state that you wanted to develop a practice round, but I should have specifically stated the HAP bullet to be for practice only.

[MarkCO]

As far as accuracy and velocity, I have found that the HAP performs identically to the XTP in 124 grain 9mm. In the Fackler box, not so much.

[RadarTech]

I have a couple points to share--

1. MOST experienced loaders will tell you that their handloads run better, smoother and with LESS flaws than Factory ammo.

2. MOST experienced shooters will tell you that they have had FACTORY Ammo SQUIB on them.. I had this happen ONCE with a winchester whitebox .45

3. -- For Factory carry ammo- (pick your favority) 1 and 2 above NORMALLY don't apply...

Would I carry hand loads? I do when I'm at home when I might run into a wild animal.. BUT I also carry an extra mag with factory ammo too....

If I were to get sued, what would I do? I'd call a reloading expert to dazzle the court.

AND I'd call a doctor-- If he dead?yes-- did the speed of the bullet varrying from 900 fps to 1100 fps make him less dead?

then I'd call an aeronuatical engineer-- if an object goes 1100 fps versus 900 fps what is the perception of difference in travel times for a distance of 6 inches? Would a trained pilot be able to discern this difference?

I dunno.. I would play it safe carrying out in public..BUT just don't see it really......

[Nik Habicht]

I'd suggest using factory ammo for "real" situations and developing a load that simulates the factory ammo - recoil and accuracy wise - for practice or target use. That would be less expensive and accomplish the same thing.

This! And make sure you practice with some carry ammo occasionally, especially when switching lots, to verify that it will work and more importantly hit where you think it will.....

[Alaskapopo]

Just my opinion. But I would not do it for several reasons. While it may be Ayoobs opinion only it has some good foundation from him being an expert witness in court time and time again. I don't really like the guy all that much but he does have some credibility in the court room. I have seen prosecutors try to use red herring arguments before to attack gun owners. One time they tried to use the fact the person in question changed their CCW from a .38 to a .44 mag. Another time a prosecutor I was working with was going to ask the defendant why he owned so many guns. I told her it would backfire because I owned a lot more and I was the investigating officer. All an attorney has to do (defense or DA) is convince 12 people to stupid to figure out how to get off jury duty that their right. Their arguments don't have to be correct only believable by the masses. What also matters the most in my opinion is the politics in the area you live. If your in Alaska or Texas you can shoot the suspect with anything and the only question the juries will have is why you did not reload and shoot them some more. In New York the situation is entirely different. Also factory ammo has some advantages over reloads such as flash retardant powder, better bullets like the Federal HST, Ranger Talon etc, Also the primers are sealed as well as the case mouth so the ammunition is more weather resistant. Also I love reloading but take reloads as a whole vs factory ammo for reliability and reloads will not look so good. Seen a lot more squibs, undercharges, over charges crimp issues etc with peoples reloads vs factory ammo.

Pat

Edited February 6, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Hi-Power Jack]

All an attorney has to do is convince 12 people too stupid to get off jury duty that they're right.

In New York the situation is entirely different.

Also factory ammo has some advantages over reloads such as flash retardant powder, better bullets Also the primers are sealed as well as the case mouth so the ammunition is more weather resistant. Seen a lot more squibs, undercharges, over charges crimp issues etc with peoples reloads vs factory ammo.

Pat

+1.

[Religious Shooter]

In one of those Dateline type shows they interviewed three or four jurors after the trial where the defendant used a .45 to shoot someone while out hiking. The prosecutor harped on the fact that the defendant used a .45 ... and one of the jurors bought it. She mentions in her interview that fact the defendant had used a more powerful (than normal) handgun in the shooting. The shooting happened in Arizona.

If you use reloaded ammo (or a more "powerful" handgun) in a shooting be prepared for the prosecutor and opposing lawyer to use it against you.

Personally I load/reload for Zombie and WROL situations. For HD I use factory ammo.

For 9MM I use 115 HAP with 4.8 TG. I use nickel cases that I set-aside specifically for Zombie/WROL ammo.

For rifle I loaded just regular 55 FMJBT with X-Term.

[Religious Shooter]

If you are interested... Harold Fish was the defendant. He used a 10MM.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/#.UvOGdIzTleU

And the jury had another issue to think about: Fish’s gun.

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler:

Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.

Larson:

And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?

Lessler:

Yes.

Don't know of where you can find the complete video.

[MarkCO]

While some try to use the Fish case, the handload issue was not an issue in that case. It does however illustrate the slippery slope.

[Shadowrider]

In my state I can't face civil litigation unless I'm charged and convicted on criminal grounds. If it's a justified shoot, it just doesn't matter and that's the way it should be but unfortunately in a lot of places it's not. For those places I think it's just common sense to use commercial and I'd most probably pick what the local police use. Kind of hard for a DA to argue that one.

[toothguy]

Personally I would use factory ammo specifically designed for self defense and it says that on the box.

[RDA]

So, what I have learned here is that prosecuting attorneys will use any angle they can to attack someone in a civil case to prove a shoot as unjustified? Shocking, apparently I don't have to adjust my opinion of that particular profession.

I have a 9mm (Glock 19 or S&W M&P) for home defense with Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P ammo (factory or reload, they are indistinguishable), probably the most common guns and bullets used by police/sheriff/trooper/marshal departments across our country. I am comfortable with that.

[MarkCO]

RDA, it is not just civil cases (attorneys), but also criminal cases with aggressive prosecutors, as well as defense attorneys. GSR collection procedures in many jurisdictions are sorely lacking. In 2013, I worked as a defense expert on 2 cases where GSR was an issue. While I can not give specifics, I can generalize one of them...

There was an alleged shooting (no persons were struck with bullets) and a defendant was charged. GSR was found in the defendants car. However, the locations of the GSR were not documented. Yes, there was GSR in the defendant vehicle, but it was primarily in the trunk, where empty cartridges were tossed after range trips. I actually started another case with very similar circumstances.

In the Bias case, the simulations were awful, I will just leave it at that. When I do a simulation for GSR, I work closely with a lab technician and we control and or replicate all known parameters of the case. I won't go into detail for obvious reasons, but with proper replication, which must have a factual basis under Daubert (or State Expert testimony rules), most people would be totally amazed at what can be factually proven if truly approached using the scientific method. Realize that in MOST criminal cases, lab techs and police officers are not considered to be "expert" witnesses. The lab tech has to follow the ASTM standards and the police are primarily utilized to verify collection and documentation.

Problem is, good attorneys are not cheap, and neither is expert analysis. If you are interested, as someone mentioned, there are 6 short forensic analysis summary's in my article in the current issue of RECOIL.

[motosapiens]

If you are interested... Harold Fish was the defendant. He used a 10MM.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/#.UvOGdIzTleU

And the jury had another issue to think about: Fish’s gun.

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler:

Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.

Larson:

And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?

Lessler:

Yes.

Don't know of where you can find the complete video.

Fish is a good example of a pretty marginal shoot imho. As I mentioned earlier, you should really try to only shoot people that *really* need shooting. Then you won't have to worry about the courtroom, or a civil suit.

[Hi-Power Jack]

If you are interested... Harold Fish was the defendant. He used a 10MM.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/#.UvOGdIzTleU

When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.

Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?

Lessler: Yes.

Don't know of where you can find the complete video.

you should really try to only shoot people that *really* need shooting. Then you won't have to worry about the courtroom, or a civil suit.

Unfortunately, in one second, in the dark, while you're being pummelled or

have a weapon threatening your life, it isn't quite as easy to tell if the

perp will be deemed "really needs shooting" as it will be a year later in

court, with the perp's parents in the room.