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Tac Irons / Limited Division


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Question... Did the whole problem of not being able to reset and paint long range steel targets begin when MD's started moving targets beyond 300yds?

Yes.

I would give up shooting past 300 yards if it meant all the rifle steel fell and needed to be painted.

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I'll never go back to fallen brethren. I got shoot to the long range stage off the tower after sunset. I begged them for some paint and I was told no once the match has started the wont paint ANYTHING. So I took my lumps like a man, shot down a cactus that I thought was a target, and ran into the black wall past 350..... oh well. Next morning drove back up on top to shoot the LaRue stage in the canyon. Just as we topped the mesa, I looked over at the "tower stage" and each and every LONG RANGE TARGET had a fresh new coat of white paint!..... Nope that told me everything I need to know about that match and how they look at shooters. They treated Cheryl Fordice the same way over on two......NEVER GOING BACK!!!

Edited by kurtm
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I'll never go back to fallen brethren. I got shoot to the long range stage off the tower after sunset. I begged them for some paint and I was told no once the match has started the wont paint ANYTHING. So I took my lumps lime a man, shot down a cactus that I thought was a target, and ran it the black wall past 350..... oh well. Next morning drove back up on top to shoot the LaRue stage in the canyon. Just ASEAN we topped the mesa, I looked over at the "tower stage" and each and every LONG RANGE TARGET had a fresh new coat of white paint!..... Nope that told me everything I need to know about that match and how the look at shooters. They treated Cheryl Nordic the same way over on two......NEVER GOING BACK!!!

Sucks to hear stuff like that about a match. I love the area, the restaurants, and have free lodging close to the range. I've gotten lucky on the long range stuff each year and shot almost all of it on the first day before any rain/wind/darkness moved in. Two years in a row, I've started on the exact same stage in fact.

Was hoping to see all the shooters at Sweetie Pie's Ribeyes.

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I will say this about the 3GN Southeast Regional match this past weekend, all rifle steel was repainted blaze orange between every squad.

When targets were hit they would blacken but at least they tried to made the targets visible for everyone, and they remained visible enough.

Steel was also reasonably sized at 3-4 MOA, and I still watched as fellow TACOPS shooters went through multiple magazines to clear a stage.

Long range steel is rough enough for most shooters, and to crown a "winner" in ANY division you don't need to have punishing courses of fire.

Remember, its who can neutralize all the targets the fastest... not just who can get their hits.

I'm not saying make it easy but 12" targets at 300 yards when fully amped up, on natural terrain, with a crosswind... is a good measure of talent.

4 MOA steel, spray painted blaze orange is easy to see for everyone, still hard to hit for most, and hard to hit the fastest even for the Pro's.

I think they did a good job with the long range stuff, and would like to see more of it done that way.

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Wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fils up first. The only way we can show our approval or disapproval of a match is by attending or not. Right now there are 20 tacops people waiting for every spot that a limited or HM shooter gives up. I shot limited gear in open at a match last year, I do not care what divisions are offered, I will shoot whatever the hell tickles my fancy.

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Amen brother steel! There is a few matches I wont shoot, and the ones I do I will always shoot irons at.....because they paint and don't hide. :)

I would very much like for you to share this list of matches with me. 1x is coming off this year and I'm going straight irons. It's got to be better than a red blob on a long range target.

If I have to buy a production gun to play in the iron sight division, well, I just don't have an answer for that right now. For the record ALL shooters do not have a plastic gun.

Edited by cheryl
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Not sure why more matches don't paint the targets black and put white backers behind them. You don't have to pain nearly as much this way if at all since black stays black a lot longer. But you need a baker.

Pat

Pat, if I'm not mistaken, you like to shoot Open pistol. How about all the steel gets painted red? Black sight on a black target even with a backer isn't very good.

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a paragraph in post 107, pretty much covers what we all want to feel like when we shoot. We honestly don't want to win when we know we don't have the skill set to do it, but we do want to walk off the stage feeling good about our performance when we know that we should, its frustrating when you watch shooters in your squad shoot plainly visible targets and by the time you get to shoot 3 shooters later, you can't see targets clearly, or worse your RO can't even tell you where they are. That feeling of frustration is what causes people to not come back, at which point we start to make excuses for our frustration.

Years ago, Kurt and I used to do an end of year report on all the matches we went to, we'd brainstorm ideas, about the good things and bad things we saw at matches, a lot of what we discussed was based on feedback from other shooters, things we saw others deal with and such. These reports led us to try and implement some changes, as we had lots of friends that put on matches and asked for our opinion.

4moa targets, 1x optics in limited, no shoots on shotgun stages, backers for LR targets, paint LR targets, rifle shooting positions other than prone and in your face, etc. some of these things were accomplished and some we still try and get done.

The 4moa target was a big help, its big enough to see and tough enough to hit. but you still NEED to see it. sure its easy to hit from a bench sighting in at the range, but run 50yds and post up on a tree thats moving from your heavy breathing, its a tough target, made even tougher by being placed under bushes or trees, AND unpainted.

When MD/RM's decided that 300yds was too easy of a shot, and stuff needed to be moved further out. It was one target, a bonus, then it became 3 targets, then it became who can lay claim to having the furthest target in 3 gun. All the while basing this on a "scoped" rifle, that was high tech at 4x or 3.5x, now we have 6.5x and 8x, we even have some shooting 2.5-10x in TO, why????? Because the targets can't be seen, or they are further than they NEED to be.

Guess what,.... Iron sights haven't gotten better like optics, they are the same, the shooters are the same.

So in order to have that feel good feeling, shooters have had to go to optics with magnification, why,........ because targets and target presentations have changed.

Things need to be tougher!?!?!?!? Basketball is still played on the same size court, the basket didn't get smaller, the ball didn't get bigger, the three point line hasn't moved further away, things don't NEED to be MADE tougher, the people playing the sport will accomplish that by raising the bar of excellence in their own performance.

Amen Brother Trapr!

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Wynn,

Good thing you didn't shoot FNH last year, at least with irons. Black targets, no backers except for the dirt of the berms they put behind them. I had thought about shooting my M1A at the match, and then thought better of it.

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One reason I like shooting irons is that I can use target viability as an excuse when I miss.

I thought It was an original idea until reading this post. At a local match last nov I shot a half a dozen times at what turned out to be a dirt clod...and I was the one who set up the stage.

Irons are supposed to be hard. Tell match director to make a match "irons friendly" and u probably will get a look that says "want some cheese with that whine?".

Edited by Lead-Head
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Irons are supposed to be hard. Tell match director to make a match "irons friendly" and u probably will get a look that says "want some cheese with that whine?".

Making them visible doesn't make it any easier, it makes it possible.

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Hell black on white like at camp Perry is a Hell of a lot better than what we have now!! Its kinda near the big tree but in the showdown kinda near where the creek goes by the pile of dirt.....but in general closer to the tree. I don't know how many targets in the last 4 years I shot into the general area till someone yelled hit. :( :(

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If they were impossible, or invisible nobody would hit them.

When some hit them and others don't, they were just more difficult for some than others. Admittedly some variables, such as conditions, may be different from shooter to shooter.

Edited by Lead-Head
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Your going to make a great match director! See a few people hit it so there is no problem. No painting, no reshoots, don't back this match up for that crap. I guess your stage design was a good one even though you ended up shooting dirt. Guess you forgot which part of the creek you were near.

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Not sure why more matches don't paint the targets black and put white backers behind them. You don't have to pain nearly as much this way if at all since black stays black a lot longer. But you need a baker.

Pat

Blaze orange background would probably be better, at least it would give a higher contrast and be easier to find in the shade.

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irons is hard enough ALREADY, it doesn't need to be MADE harder.

The other excuse I loooove hearing is,......................... its the same for everybody in your division. spoken by a true DILIGAF!!

Trapr

Edited by bigbrowndog
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Your going to make a great match director! See a few people hit it so there is no problem. No painting, no reshoots, don't back this match up for that crap. I guess your stage design was a good one even though you ended up shooting dirt. Guess you forgot which part of the creek you were near.

Yes, on the stages I put together some shooters hit all the targets, some hit a few, some time out. I am ok with that. If shooters are discontented, I guess they will stop coming out.

Some will call it laziness I suppose. But when two guys are setting up a match for 100 shooters, as volunteers, I am not sure that is an accurate characterization of the match staff.

Btw, I have always been a threat to dirt clods, even at other peoples matches.

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Make the tools available for the squad to paint the targets at the very least (4-wheeler, etc). Let the irons guys shoot first after painting and use backers. The time and frustration you will save from a world class rifle shooter having to time out will more than make up for the 5 minutes it takes to paint.

It should be a rule somewhere that all MD's have to successfully negotiate each long range stage within the allotted time at the beginning and the end of each match! Hahahaha. :)

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Not sure why more matches don't paint the targets black and put white backers behind them. You don't have to pain nearly as much this way if at all since black stays black a lot longer. But you need a baker.

Pat

Pat, if I'm not mistaken, you like to shoot Open pistol. How about all the steel gets painted red? Black sight on a black target even with a backer isn't very good.

I thought Iron guys used small fiber optics in the front sights?

Pat

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Not sure why more matches don't paint the targets black and put white backers behind them. You don't have to pain nearly as much this way if at all since black stays black a lot longer. But you need a baker.

Pat

Blaze orange background would probably be better, at least it would give a higher contrast and be easier to find in the shade.

I actually like marigold a darker yellow. Works well up here when shooting at targets 400 yards away in the shadows. White does not work because of the snow and black does not work because of the shadows.

Pat

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