Tac Irons / Limited Division

[bmiller]

I own a production gun, but don't enjoy shooting it nearly as much as my 6" 9mm! 3-gun is not a cheap sport any way you cut it.

Not cheap because your running 10,000x the number of rounds through a 6" that you enjoy shooting instead of your production gun. A production gun is....just that.

You are correct, Sir!

[millsusaf]

Well all fine guesses, but NO! We allowed red dots in to save a dying division. Now did that work? Well no....at most major matches attendance went from 7-12 to 24 or so, big whoop! Changing gear doesn't "increase" attendance. The reason? Everyone and his dog thinks you need 1-bazzilion X in order to shoot a rifle...especially NEWER SHOOTERS!!!!! So playing with the gear will only end up killing off what Mike Pinto and I tried to save by allowing 1X optic into iron!

The winning answer is Lead Head!!!

I would love to see some of the pros switch back to tac-iron permanently. That's why the newer shooters think they have to have magnification, the pros are doing it. If TI was more accepted at the pro level, I think we would get more new shooters. If you don't think that is true just look at any gun board on the topic. People are constantly saying they can't do 3gun because they think they can't afford the gear or they are asking what whiz bang scope to get, never having shot a match.

Tac-irons is a much greater challenge and test of skill over tac-optics. Any pros reading this, I challenge you, please set an example and display your skills shooting Tac-Irons.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Edited March 5, 2014 by millsusaf

[kurtm]

Well MILLSUSAF I might not be a "Pro" by your definition. I didn't pay any entity a bunch of money for a Pro card, but i did win a match once. I would happily take you up on your offer, but i cant switch back! You see its not about the sponsorship , the fame, the glory,.....its just that you cant switch back to something you never left. In the 20 plus years I have played this game, I have shot an optic at a match 8 times. A couple of times when I was shooting for Trijicon back in the old SOF match days. A couple time two years ago when i was helping out Bushnell with their tactical line, other than that it has always been IRONS baby!

[millsusaf]

Well MILLSUSAF I might not be a "Pro" by your definition. I didn't pay any entity a bunch of money for a Pro card, but i did win a match once. I would happily take you up on your offer, but i cant switch back! You see its not about the sponsorship , the fame, the glory,.....its just that you cant switch back to something you never left. In the 20 plus years I have played this game, I have shot an optic at a match 8 times. A couple of times when I was shooting for Trijicon back in the old SOF match days. A couple time two years ago when i was helping out Bushnell with their tactical line, other than that it has always been IRONS baby!

That's great, hopefully those pros who get the attention on TV, 3Gun Nation, YouTube, etc follow suit.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[co-exprs]

I don't know. I think adding the 1x did boost the Limited division. From 12 to 24 is a 100% improvement. No other division can claim 100% growth in so short a time. While major matches all sell out local matches in our area are constantly struggling to maintain attendance. There are a ton of couch warriors out there who think their Eotech is the one and only legit sighting system, cuz that's what they read on AR15. While those mall ninjas will all claim that you have to have iron sights for back up, very few will ever attempt to shoot them beyond 50yds. 1x encourages people who don't have competition specialized equipment to come out and give competition a try. Like Kurt, I prefer irons, but I have a Meopta scope, Aimpoint and Prismatic I like to play with also. I guess my point is, adding 1x to Limited just provided another option, allowing a wider audience to come out and have fun. It's unfortunate that more people don't relish and take pride in the challenge of learning irons, but in all fairness it is a long term commitment that not everyone has the time, resources or patience for. In the end, what we all really want to see is loads of people out at matches, getting trigger time and learning how to safely operate their gear in the broadest possible conditions and contributing to the growth of our sport. Allowing 1x in limited was a good move.

[Stlhead]

1x is for pansies. Real operators shoot 0x. Blindfolded.

[Moltke]

So this past weekend I shot TACOPS at the Southeast 3GN Regional Championship because that's the only way to be "tracked" by 3GN now that they've scrapped the division series. It was certainly different... NOT!

Everything was the same as it always was. Same pistol, same shotgun, same old "me" problems. Rusty and slow from not shooting much over the winter didn't help either.

But I can see why so many shoot in TACOPS with a 1-6x. Long range rifle shots ain't never been so easy, with the Vortex JM-1 that I was borrowing from a friend it might as well have been a videogame.

Crosshairs, trigger, hit. Repeat as necessary.

So I shot quickly and accurately, without problems or issues at long range, and it was neat to zip through it so fast.

Knowing that, and knowing how addictive it can be to shoot well, feel like you're doing well, and wanting to continue that feeling... I have to ask this knowing that TACOPS dominates the sport.

What is the goal of TACIRONS?

To recruit more shooters to the division? (That'd be nice)

To make it "the" place to shoot in 3 Gun? (Don't think thats going happen)

Or to barely stay relevant? (Seems to be what's happening)

Unless we want the only divisions in 3 Gun to be: Open, TACOPS, and HM...all with optics & race guns... we'd better think of something as TACIRONS shooters.

There are whole other segments of the shooting community to recruit to the sport such as budget shooters, tactical shooters, and people who want to run their battle rifles but not feel outgamed or outgunned.

There would still be plenty of gamesmanship & modifications to do to a pistol / shotgun / rifle to make it "better" or "more competitive" without diving into the TACOPS division.

TACIRONS could be a division set up with factory guns which is what most people have, irons or red dots, flush magazines in factory pistols, no +X extensions on shotguns, and only 30rd mags on rifles.

TACIRONS could be a division that is going to be an easy division for many people to step right into with the guns/gear they already have, not gamed out, and still remain reasonably competitive.

TACIRONS could be relevant again if this is done right & embraced.

[Alaskapopo]

Lots of things are more challenging like trying to run a three gun match with a muzzle loader, but why? (just being evil)
Pat

[Moltke]

Lots of things are more challenging like trying to run a three gun match with a muzzle loader, but why? (just being evil)

Pat

3 Gun Musket Division = Awesome

[kurtm]

Opening up red dots to irons was supposed to draw the exact crowd you talk about, but guess what....IT DIDN'T!!! Oh sure right at first the Arfcommers and sneekypete warrior crowds did show up, and quite a lot of them, but very few stayed. It is hard to deal with the fact that these " sissy gamers" kicked their 4 and 5 tactical class butts and not by just a little. Most all clanked and creaked away in their plates and vests never to return. The few that stayed stayed because they enjoyed the shooting and not just the image and I don't care how you try to dress it up by changing gear this will always be the outcome.

Right now you really only have two divisions open and tac optics, all the rest are miniscule in comparison, and open ain't all that big. Make it all tac optics! I don't mind shooting irons against optic, I've done it before, BUT if your going to offer the division MAKE SURE THE IRON GUYS CAN SEE THE TARGETS!!!!!!

[Moltke]

Good point kurtm,

Having long range rifle targets that IRONS shooters can't see sucks.

4 MOA targets can't be hit on the first shot by 1/2 the shooters in TACOPS so think about that when there's an IRONS division present.

Targets in the shade, in trees, with no backers, comes out to be a real dick move when you're forcing competitors to either take misses because they can't see it or hope to hit it fast.

Otherwise,

So if theres so little difference between the divisions of TACIRONS & TACOPS, and you don't mind shooting irons in an optics class, then whats the point of having separate divisions?

Really, I asked before "what's the goal"? Are we trying to save the division or should we scrap it?

Most shooters aren't interested in shooting irons, understood.

Shooting irons in an optics class? How is it fun or fair to be outgeared and outgunned before the game even starts?

If the goal is to win than I'd want every competitive advantage I could get, and if everyone else is shooting a 1-6x well shit then I'd want one too.

If the goal is not to win, but just to shoot and have fun then I guess that's different.

Timing is everything and Production has really caught on for USPSA, and the same thing could happen in 3 Gun too...

Or whatever it, everyone shoot TACOPS or GTFO.

[Alaskapopo]

I like Open a lot but still enjoy tac optics as well. Don't want to see us lose divisions. Would like more people to come out but these last few years have been tough on guns and ammo.

Pat

[Sterling White]

I really don't mind shooting my Priz against KM and his 4x irons Or magnified scopes as long as the targets ARE VISIBLE! As a matter fact I am enjoying the "new" challenges that limited has to offer since dropping out of TACOPS. BTW...the decision to purchase a goPro was pretty simple...opted for noGo card instead. For me, its about shooting and hanging out with a great group of folks which comes with many laughs....and cider too.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Sterling White

[Alaskapopo]

I almost think it would be nice to have separate targets on the long range stages for the 1x or iron guys. Put them right next to the targets for tac optics and irons but make them much bigger and easier to see. That way everyone is happy. Tac optics and open guys get more of a challenge and iron guys can see the targets.

Pat

[kurtm]

Really Pat??? NEVER has anyone who shoots irons has asked for a bigger easier target...NOT ONCE!! I cant speak for others, but that statement couldn't be more insulting if you tried. Those of us skilled in iron sight shooting can hit any reasonable target a low power scope can it just needs to be VISIBLE. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but you better watch out if Cheryl gets a hold of that.

[co-exprs]

+1000. I take pride in pulling down competive times on long range stages using my rediculous iron sights. By competitive, I mean against Tac O guys with 6x glass.

[Alaskapopo]

Sorry being insulting was not my intent. Was trying to think outside the box. I will go back inside the box now. Never meant to imply that iron shooters wanted larger targets. More like me personally would not mind seeing some smaller targets once in a while but they would be problematic for iron shooters such as MGM auto poppers at 200 yards. Sorry again did not mean to insult you or anyone else Kurt. I actually have a lot of respect for the Iron sight guys as its a lot harder. I helped a buddy sight in a set of back up irons on his gun a few weeks back and we started shooting at a MGM auto popper I out at 100 yards. That thing was tough to see and hit with irons. You guys have some good eyes and skills.
Pat

Edited March 6, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Nuke8401]

Really Pat??? NEVER has anyone who shoots irons has asked for a bigger easier target...NOT ONCE!! I cant speak for others, but that statement couldn't be more insulting if you tried. Those of us skilled in iron sight shooting can hit any reasonable target a low power scope can it just needs to be VISIBLE. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but you better watch out if Cheryl gets a hold of that.

The thing is many of us would like to shoot irons/1x but we are so far below your skill level (and the others at the top 1-2% of the limited game) that the matches/targets (MGMs out to 450/less than 4 MOA) that are common now are just not doable for us. Yes, we could all spend 1-5 years/10,000rds shooting Highpower to become "real" rifle shooters but that still leaves out the beginner/intermediate/not perfect vision crowd from shooting limited.

Just saying it would be nice if the matches were at least doable for an average guy shooting a red dot. Myself for example, I have finished between 50-80% of the winners score at the 3-4 national matches I have shot with a 1-3X and BDC (Leupold CQT) but shooting irons I couldn't hit half the long range rifle targets. Just doesn't make sense that the division that allows irons and especially 1X requires so much more skill than TO. Full size IPSIC (Larue) targets would be great.

And I don't think anything is more of a turnoff for a new shooter than not at least being able to hit the targets. If a new shooter can hit them, even if really slow, they are much happier at the end of the match.

The way it is now, Limited will be for those that either are very good or are gluttons for punishment.

My 2 cents,

Wannabe irons/1x shooter

Edited March 6, 2014 by Nuke8401

[co-exprs]

Having recently gone through the learning curve you are referring to, I think the perception of too hard sets the stage in your own mind and manifests as too hard in reality. When I started out shooting TO (about 5yrs ago), it took me a couple of years and several thousand rounds to get decent at hitting at distance with glass. In early 2012 I tried HM Iron at the Noveske match here in Colorado. I shot a borrowed M1A and only got a couple weekends and a few hundred rounds for practice before the match. I finishing respectably behind Romero and when I got home I set up a 223 with some decent iron sights and began practicing. I burned about 1000rds on iron sight practice in 2012 and then made the switch to HM Iron in 2013 and have done well in the division. My point is that It took me considerably longer to learn how to shoot with glass than my transition to irons. That's because the process of shooting with glass and shooting with irons are not as different as many people make it out to be. Operating the rifle and hitting targets is the same, it's only the size of the visual feed back and the shifting focal plane which is different. Shooting irons has really, really moved the needle on my overall skill set. It does require good vision, visible targets and some focused practice, but learning to shoot irons isn't some mystical thing that only a chosen few can master. Believe me, I am no gifted rifle man. I gotta work for it. If I can do it anyone can. I do understand however that shooting is predominantly a social event. Most competitors are only there to get out of the house for some outdoor fun. For many, a day or two a month on the range is really all they have time for or all their significant other will allow them to have. Not everyone is as driven to improve their performance level as I am and even less have the time and resources. Most people need a sight and a division which will allow them to just show up, have fun and not feel embarrassed. Red dots and glass will get most people there out to 300 without much drama, which covers 98% of the targets we shoot. .Kurt hasn't seen much attendance advantage to 1x glass in Limited, but on the front range of Colorado, there are really only about 20 serious 3gunners spread out across 200 miles. The rest of the crowd comes and goes. The one area which has seen steady influx of new shooters, has been Limited division guys with M4 clones. I think Mark Passamaneck does a good job of getting new guys to show up with what they've got. He tries to keep the CRC match stages fun but not intimidating for those new guys so they will come back. Some stay and some don't. A few get bit by the bug and start shopping muzzle brakes and glass. If it weren't for Limited Div and red dots I think there would be little to no growth at all in our area. Yes target visibility is some times an issue, but I know how much work goes into these matches by 100% volunteer work and am grateful to have a match to go to at all. The Johnson's host several "local" matches a year, which generally have 4 or 5 national level stages. They live 3.5hrs drive from the Whittington Center and do those matches with minimal help. Awesome matches and labors of love for them. I'm not about to disrespect their efforts just because one of the targets that was visible an hour ago is now covered in shade (especially when JJ just shot that stage and put down a killer time... with irons). Their natural terrain matches have natural terrain features. That means hills, shade, grass, cactus, bushes and wildlife. Nature is unpredictable and thus sometimes a target which was visible when positioned is now obscured by a giant field of sun flowers... or a bear... or Denise pulling cactus spines out of her left butt cheek.

[Benelli Chick]

Having recently gone through the learning curve you are referring to, I think the perception of too hard sets the stage in your own mind and manifests as too hard in reality. When I started out shooting TO (about 5yrs ago), it took me a couple of years and several thousand rounds to get decent at hitting at distance with glass. In early 2012 I tried HM Iron at the Noveske match here in Colorado. I shot a borrowed M1A and only got a couple weekends and a few hundred rounds for practice before the match. I finishing respectably behind Romero and when I got home I set up a 223 with some decent iron sights and began practicing. I burned about 1000rds on iron sight practice in 2012 and then made the switch to HM Iron in 2013 and have done well in the division. My point is that It took me considerably longer to learn how to shoot with glass than my transition to irons. That's because the process of shooting with glass and shooting with irons are not as different as many people make it out to be. Operating the rifle and hitting targets is the same, it's only the size of the visual feed back and the shifting focal plane which is different. Shooting irons has really, really moved the needle on my overall skill set. It does require good vision, visible targets and some focused practice, but learning to shoot irons isn't some mystical thing that only a chosen few can master. Believe me, I am no gifted rifle man. I gotta work for it. If I can do it anyone can. I do understand however that shooting is predominantly a social event. Most competitors are only there to get out of the house for some outdoor fun. For many, a day or two a month on the range is really all they have time for or all their significant other will allow them to have. Not everyone is as driven to improve their performance level as I am and even less have the time and resources. Most people need a sight and a division which will allow them to just show up, have fun and not feel embarrassed. Red dots and glass will get most people there out to 300 without much drama, which covers 98% of the targets we shoot. .Kurt hasn't seen much attendance advantage to 1x glass in Limited, but on the front range of Colorado, there are really only about 20 serious 3gunners spread out across 200 miles. The rest of the crowd comes and goes. The one area which has seen steady influx of new shooters, has been Limited division guys with M4 clones. I think Mark Passamaneck does a good job of getting new guys to show up with what they've got. He tries to keep the CRC match stages fun but not intimidating for those new guys so they will come back. Some stay and some don't. A few get bit by the bug and start shopping muzzle brakes and glass. If it weren't for Limited Div and red dots I think there would be little to no growth at all in our area. Yes target visibility is some times an issue, but I know how much work goes into these matches by 100% volunteer work and am grateful to have a match to go to at all. The Johnson's host several "local" matches a year, which generally have 4 or 5 national level stages. They live 3.5hrs drive from the Whittington Center and do those matches with minimal help. Awesome matches and labors of love for them. I'm not about to disrespect their efforts just because one of the targets that was visible an hour ago is now covered in shade (especially when JJ just shot that stage and put down a killer time... with irons). Their natural terrain matches have natural terrain features. That means hills, shade, grass, cactus, bushes and wildlife. Nature is unpredictable and thus sometimes a target which was visible when positioned is now obscured by a giant field of sun flowers... or a bear... or Denise pulling cactus spines out of her left butt cheek.

Ummm! I try not to do that when anyone is around!

[co-exprs]

Oops. I got the angry eyes.

[bigbrowndog]

a paragraph in post 107, pretty much covers what we all want to feel like when we shoot. We honestly don't want to win when we know we don't have the skill set to do it, but we do want to walk off the stage feeling good about our performance when we know that we should, its frustrating when you watch shooters in your squad shoot plainly visible targets and by the time you get to shoot 3 shooters later, you can't see targets clearly, or worse your RO can't even tell you where they are. That feeling of frustration is what causes people to not come back, at which point we start to make excuses for our frustration.

Years ago, Kurt and I used to do an end of year report on all the matches we went to, we'd brainstorm ideas, about the good things and bad things we saw at matches, a lot of what we discussed was based on feedback from other shooters, things we saw others deal with and such. These reports led us to try and implement some changes, as we had lots of friends that put on matches and asked for our opinion.

4moa targets, 1x optics in limited, no shoots on shotgun stages, backers for LR targets, paint LR targets, rifle shooting positions other than prone and in your face, etc. some of these things were accomplished and some we still try and get done.

The 4moa target was a big help, its big enough to see and tough enough to hit. but you still NEED to see it. sure its easy to hit from a bench sighting in at the range, but run 50yds and post up on a tree thats moving from your heavy breathing, its a tough target, made even tougher by being placed under bushes or trees, AND unpainted.

When MD/RM's decided that 300yds was too easy of a shot, and stuff needed to be moved further out. It was one target, a bonus, then it became 3 targets, then it became who can lay claim to having the furthest target in 3 gun. All the while basing this on a "scoped" rifle, that was high tech at 4x or 3.5x, now we have 6.5x and 8x, we even have some shooting 2.5-10x in TO, why????? Because the targets can't be seen, or they are further than they NEED to be.

Guess what,.... Iron sights haven't gotten better like optics, they are the same, the shooters are the same.

So in order to have that feel good feeling, shooters have had to go to optics with magnification, why,........ because targets and target presentations have changed.

Things need to be tougher!?!?!?!? Basketball is still played on the same size court, the basket didn't get smaller, the ball didn't get bigger, the three point line hasn't moved further away, things don't NEED to be MADE tougher, the people playing the sport will accomplish that by raising the bar of excellence in their own performance.

Edited March 6, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[co-exprs]

Question... Did the whole problem of not being able to reset and paint long range steel targets begin when MD's started moving targets beyond 300yds?

[1chota]

Mike, I think you have hit the nail on the head. It seems to me that has been the case. I know I quit irons when the targets got hard to find. Most were "out there". I also got to where my eyes weren't so good. The cataracts are gone now and I would like to try irons again. I just might at a match where the targets can be seen at distance. Might even use the old M1 Garand. I do like shooting that thing.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

While I agree with Kurt and Trapr on nearly everything so far......I like shooting out to 400-500 yards with my Aimpoint. It's not easy, but I'm not really having an advantage over someone shooting true irns that may be able to dial a little elevation either. My vision is corrected with contacts and i have an astigmatism in my right eye, which means my Aimpoint dot is NOT a perfect circle either. Many people shoot TacOps due to distant targets being easier, but last time I checked, we are ranked against people in our divisions anyways.

I'm planning to shoot TacIrons at most matches this year, possibly including the ProAm where I would be lumped together with all the TacOps people. If i didn't have an affinity for shooting Heavy I would shoot TacIrons at STI Texas Multigun in April and Fallen Brethren in October....and last year there were PLENTY of over 400 yard targets at Fallen Brethren.