Alaskapopo Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Easy on the mags if you catch them loading more than 10 bump them to open. No debate no whinning. If you can prove it was intentional give them a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Easy on the mags if you catch them loading more than 10 bump them to open. No debate no whinning. If you can prove it was intentional give them a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. Pat And adding 2-3 more mag pouches and mags to my belt versus just loading the mags up like I do now. Back to the issue of adding gear and restriction that would eliminate my interest in shooting the TI division. I wouldn't mind the addition of a production division if it's supported.....just don't bastardize and ruin TI/Limited unless you just want those shooters to completely roll over to TacOps in order to have a further under-participated TI/Limited division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) I've shot TACIRONS for the past 2 years because thats what I was used to and thats what I liked. I loved shooting long range rifle and making quick hits when guys with high powered scopes were burning through mags. But then there's been times when its sucked too, and thats part of the game. What has frustrated me is that the ONLY difference between the divisions is one optic on one gun. Literally every other thing is the same when compared to TACOPS and its not like the differences between TACOPS, OPEN, or HM. If you want to attract more shooters to the IRONS division, then we need some more changes to the division gear. A PRODUCTION class would be welcome by many shooters who are going to be casual competitors because of the lower cost to entry, and with that probably lower expectations. Not everyone is going to be a world class 3 gunner, nor has $4-5k to drop on gear, travel, training, and ammo each year. Hell, I'd shoot a PRODUCTION class in 3 Gun in a heartbeat just to try it out. With such large distinctions between TACOPS, OPEN, and HM in 3 Gun... And such large distinctions between PROD, LIM, OPEN, Single Stack in USPSA... This would probably fit well and generate even more interest for people looking to start shooting 3 Gun - especially on a budget. Edited February 26, 2014 by Moltke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) We have been running a production class up here and we do have long field courses. Some times the production guys do need 4 spare mags but not often. Having to configure your belt is part of three gun we all do it for shotgun stages. Its still far cheaper to buy a few more mags and mag pouches than it is to buy a good semi auto shotgun and all the high cap base pads for your Glock M&P or what not to compete in standard limited. Don't know what to say other than I know it works because we have been running a production division for 3 years now. We simple did not have limited shooters here before but production has drawn a lot more interest.Pat Edited February 27, 2014 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Can anyone guess why red dots were allowed in IRON sight division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Can anyone guess why red dots were allowed in IRON sight division? To make us weak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Because the guys who write the rules are old farts with weak eyes? (For the record, I will be officially over the hill in 5 weeks, but the eyes are still holding out.) Or because the standard .mil infantry weapon is a carbine with an M68 CCO (Aimpoint)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Can anyone guess why red dots were allowed in IRON sight division?To make us weak? Was it a provision of Obamacare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'd like to think it was because the RDS has become extremely popular, and didn't have a division to play in where it could be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Well all fine guesses, but NO! We allowed red dots in to save a dying division. Now did that work? Well no....at most major matches attendance went from 7-12 to 24 or so, big whoop! Changing gear doesn't "increase" attendance. The reason? Everyone and his dog thinks you need 1-bazzilion X in order to shoot a rifle...especially NEWER SHOOTERS!!!!! So playing with the gear will only end up killing off what Mike Pinto and I tried to save by allowing 1X optic into iron! The winning answer is Lead Head!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Kurt I think doubling the numbers like you guys did is a pretty good accomplishment. Not hundreds like tac ops but a significant gain going from 7-12 to 24. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Out of 116 shooters at local 3 gun Rockcastlw Sunday, 27 TI shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I think a lot more people would shoot tac irons if rifle shots were kept under 300 yards and they used backers so folks could see the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I like the idea of a lower cost division. I don't shoot it but I want as many new people to join the sport as possible and cost is a big hold up for many folks. I am a single guy and I will buy bullets before I replace my worn out shoes. But married guys and gals with kids to support can't do that. We need a division in my opinion like the one we created called Production to allow people to be able to as cheaply as possible get into three gun.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I don't think you need to limit the range as guys like Kurt can easily hit out there well past 300 yards but I agree the targets should have a backer and be at least 4 moa. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliedelta Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Wow. This topic went way off into left field pretty quick. Appreciate all of the points of view. I still feel like an entry level division would be less intimidating to newcomers and attract more people to the sport. Limited / Tac Irons feels like a good fit. The guys with the tricked out 9mm 2011's could throw a scope onto their AR and play in Tac Ops. I don't think they would balk much at scaling back the pistol requirements for the irons division. Just my opinion. I shoot tac/limited only for 3 years now with a G34. If you start to "limit" mag capacity in all 3 guns then the shooter will NOT have room on the belt to carry enough mags/shells to complete most of the stages! Your "production" 9mm pistols can hold the same as a 2011.Remember tricked out 9mm 2011's are only 1 of 3 guns. You must master ALL 3 to win.... Not talking about limiting mag capacity. You are right - not enough room for mags. Just talking about only allowing pistols on the approved Production list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliedelta Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 I've shot TACIRONS for the past 2 years because thats what I was used to and thats what I liked. I loved shooting long range rifle and making quick hits when guys with high powered scopes were burning through mags. But then there's been times when its sucked too, and thats part of the game. What has frustrated me is that the ONLY difference between the divisions is one optic on one gun. Literally every other thing is the same when compared to TACOPS and its not like the differences between TACOPS, OPEN, or HM. If you want to attract more shooters to the IRONS division, then we need some more changes to the division gear. A PRODUCTION class would be welcome by many shooters who are going to be casual competitors because of the lower cost to entry, and with that probably lower expectations. Not everyone is going to be a world class 3 gunner, nor has $4-5k to drop on gear, travel, training, and ammo each year. Hell, I'd shoot a PRODUCTION class in 3 Gun in a heartbeat just to try it out. With such large distinctions between TACOPS, OPEN, and HM in 3 Gun... And such large distinctions between PROD, LIM, OPEN, Single Stack in USPSA... This would probably fit well and generate even more interest for people looking to start shooting 3 Gun - especially on a budget. Thank you Moltke. Finally someone who is open to discussing it. If shooting a Production grade pistol made very little difference as many have stated, there would be more people shooting .40 cal Glocks in USPSA Limited division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think a lot more people would shoot tac irons if rifle shots were kept under 300 yards and they used backers so folks could see the targets. It's not the distance, but, the visibility of the targets. If you can see it, you can hit it. Ever have a target on a stage that just disappears when a cloud goes by, even with a yellow backer? This is why many people don't shoot irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Most guys who get into 3- gun start out in the pistol side of things and by the time they show up to shoot irons optics open they already have a fancy pistol. We gonna make them buy a production gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliedelta Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Most guys who get into 3- gun start out in the pistol side of things and by the time they show up to shoot irons optics open they already have a fancy pistol. We gonna make them buy a production gun? Come on......really? Are you suggesting that someone that has been shooting on "the pistol side of things" doesn't own a Production gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Well.....ummm.....yeah! Let me ask you, is production a real popular division? USPS's numbers sure say it isn't, and yeah, I've never owned one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) I own a production gun, but don't enjoy shooting it nearly as much as my 6" 9mm! 3-gun is not a cheap sport any way you cut it. I participate because it is the most fun I have ever had playing a game. No offense, if you want to shoot some kind of combat Tupperware loaded with 10 rounds, great! Please don't try to mandate I have to use that stuff! The last time I looked Production is turning into an arms race as well. I.E. $1600 accu-shadow and extreme tangfos. Edited February 28, 2014 by bmiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't own a Production gun either, and I have shot Limited/tac Irons at several matches. I enjoy shooting irons more than I do shooting a scope, that is why I choose to shoot mainly iron sight classes/divisions. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Personally I don't want to see all the production pistol rules included. We basically adopted the rules for limited 10 for the pistol. The reason being it allowed single stack 1911's a place to play as well as Glock 21's Sig 229's etc. Its not perfect but limiting it to 10 rounds makes it less of a gear race and the mags on the belt have not been an issue. In the end the divisions are going to be up to the match hosts. One thing I like about three gun is you don't have to get permission from a far off body like USPSA to change something to fit your areas needs better. What works for us up here may not be popular in another area. I just say do what it takes to get more people shooting.Pat Edited February 28, 2014 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I own a production gun, but don't enjoy shooting it nearly as much as my 6" 9mm! 3-gun is not a cheap sport any way you cut it. Not cheap because your running 10,000x the number of rounds through a 6" that you enjoy shooting instead of your production gun. A production gun is....just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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