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Tac Irons / Limited Division


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I was just on another thread where they were discussing adding/modifying a USPSA pistol division, and it made me think of this. Why wouldn't the Tac Irons / Limited division have the pistol choices restricted to the USPSA Production division list? This is the division that new shooters try first, and there is no doubt that the competitor shooting a tricked out 2011 in 9mm has a distinct advantage over the guy shooting his G17. Has there been discussion on this?

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I may be wrong, but three gun is much less gear dependent than the pistol sports. If a competitor's gear runs correctly, they will be competitive within their skill level with anything. A guy with a 2011 isn't going to beat a guy with a Glock unless he is a more skilled shooter.

And yes, I shoot a Glock and iron sights at times.

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Given that handguns are often abandoned into a container of some sort, a handgun with a passive safety system, such as a Glock, XD/XDm, S&W M&P, is often more desirable. Failure to safe a handgun is a really bad thing, and is always checked for upon handgun retrieval. Additionally, I would much rather dump my XDm in a box than my CZ Shadow.

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No. Why make pointless changes? Shoot limited 3 gun for a few years then propose this change again if you think it is a good idea.

Agreed. If the division required production class pistols all along then no problem, but changing it now would really piss off all of the guys who've spend a bucket of coin on their custom built 9mm's which would otherwise be relegated to Limited minor in USPSA, which is not very popular. The pistol portion of 3gun isn't generally as technically demanding as USPSA. Any decent 9mm with good sights and trigger can keep up fine. You're far more likely to loose a stage or match on your hits and misses then on how much you spend on your pistol. When I run Limited, I use my .40 race gun and have never felt handicapped by the additional recoil or the couple less rounds in the magazine. I've actually considered switching to my G17, just to reduce ammo cost and wear on my expensive custom gun. I hate shooting Glocks, but it goes bang and hits stuff and I don't care if I throw it into a bucket.

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Up here in Alaska we dropped limited as it had almost no participation and we tweaked it based on what I felt we could do to make a division that was as cheap and as easy as possible for a new shooter to start playing in.

1. Pistol limited 10 USPSA rules. Basically any semi auto minus comp or optics loaded to 10+1. This made guys with a single stack 1911 competitive. A popular gun but next to useless in normal three gun.

2. Shotgun made it have to be a pump 9 rounds at the start. (everyone up here pretty much owns a pump 12 gauge of some sorts but not a semi)

3. Rifle same as limited red dot or irons but only 30 round mags. Now production shooters rival tac optic shooters in numbers at our larger prize table matches.

Pat

Edited by Alaskapopo
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Good stuff Pat! it is all about filling up divisions. That is why Mike Pinto and I allowed 1XS optics in the first place, and now it is taken up by everyone. Limited was almost dead, but it is having some rebound. I am glad that a few changes are working for you!

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Sounds like limited with pump SG and 30 rd rifle mag. So basically SG is "entry level" factor. Must be a bunch of guys w/0 semiautomatic SGs up there. Cool. I enjoy shooting a pump about as much anyway.

As far as handguns go for limited. You see glocks and m&ps competing along side 2011s in every division. No big factor.

Edited by Lead-Head
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At our local club matches you can shoot about anything you want if you do not care about divisions, you'll be lumped into one and everyone receives a score based upon division AND overall so you can see how you did against the other divisions. If you don't care about divisions you probably aren't trying to compete for higher spots at bigger matches, so why changes rules based upon the lowest common denominator? Adding a division or classification at your local club levels to adjust to the shooters who are showing up is a great idea. I especially like the idea of an officers division where they have to shoot whatever guns their department allows them to use.

I'd leave the rules alone for Limited/TacIron, just like I would leave the current rules alone for Heavy Tactical. While I agree with the purist's intents and reasons...all it would serve to do is effectively kill participation at big matches.

I own iron sighted rifles, aimpoints, a vortex 1-6,...and rifles in .223 and .308. I can pick and choose to shoot whatever division I want except for Heavy Irons since I do not have a single stack .45 or pump shotgun. This year I am planning to shoot as much TI/Limited and Heavy Tactical as possible, and may even shoot the ProAm with my T1 depending on how well I am shooting it compared to how well I think I would do with the Vortex 1-6. Change the rules where I have to use different mags, a different shotgun,...or in the case of Heavy, buy a ..40-45 and you have effectively removed my interest in those divisions. Those out-lying divisions outside of Open and TacOps already see a low number of participants as-is....and like KurtM said, allowing 1x optics in Limited/TacIron has rejuvenated the division for the most part.

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I was just on another thread where they were discussing adding/modifying a USPSA pistol division, and it made me think of this. Why wouldn't the Tac Irons / Limited division have the pistol choices restricted to the USPSA Production division list? This is the division that new shooters try first, and there is no doubt that the competitor shooting a tricked out 2011 in 9mm has a distinct advantage over the guy shooting his G17. Has there been discussion on this?

You're already at a disadvantage with your rifle. It is a choice you make if you want to play that game. I have shot/shoot both Tac Irons and Tac ops. my pistol isn't holding me back. I mean a good shooter could come out here with a Highpoint and still beat you.
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I've seen plenty of 9mm's tackle the best courses and their owners come away shaking their heads because the heavy steel didn't fall. Have even won a few side bets on the number of rounds it takes to get a spinner around. 40 for me.

I can flip my MGM spinner in 8 to 9 seconds with my 40 and in around 10 seconds with my 9mm using 147 grain hot reloads.

Pat

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I used .40 up until 2 years ago and switched to 9. Not going back. Yes the .40 did smak the steel, but the most frequently encountered steel pistol target I run into is a 5" plate. Big steel is usually a gong at distance. Yes, FS poppers may be better serves by .40, but not enough of those to make up for the quicker splits and larger mag cap. Of the 9 over the entire match from my perspective.

I get the pistol spinner argument, but i have maybe only seen one once at a match and I believe that was a local. Maybe if I knew there was one of those at a match I would break out my .40, it would depend on the totality of the match.

Edited by Lead-Head
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Why wouldn't the Tac Irons / Limited division have the pistol choices restricted to the USPSA Production division list? This is the division that new shooters try first

Based on what little I have seen, this doesn't seem to necessarily be the case. There are plenty of new guys in tactical optics, and plenty of veterans who willingly choose to be in heavy metal or tac irons / limited for the challenge and fun of it, and they still blow the pants off the new guys.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
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I used .40 up until 2 years ago and switched to 9. Not going back. Yes the .40 did smak the steel, but the most frequently encountered steel pistol target I run into is a 5" plate. Big steel is usually a gong at distance. Yes, FS poppers may be better serves by .40, but not enough of those to make up for the quicker splits and larger mag cap. Of the 9 over the entire match from my perspective.

I get the pistol spinner argument, but i have maybe only seen one once at a match and I believe that was a local. Maybe if I knew there was one of those at a match I would break out my .40, it would depend on the totality of the match.

5" plates? Last time you set out these miniscule-looked like 3" squares- at obscene distances. LOL! Just bustin' your chops!

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I think the game could really benefit from a "Production" division, more at the local/club level than major matches. I've discussed it here before. Basically:

Rifle: irons or 1X sights, 30rd mags, otherwise Limited/Tac specs.

Shotgun: pump shotguns, possibly with a slightly reduced starting capacity (7 or 8 at the buzzer instead of 9)

Pistol: anything legal in USPSA production or any IDPA division, 15rd mag limit.

The idea being a division with "equipment parity" using the guns that "gun people" that aren't already into 3 Gun almost certainly already have, and count on to defend their families.

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At club/local level matches....are any of you really worried about divisions? I'm not being sarcastic, but instead serious. Every month at the location of the midwest3gun we have a 3-gun match and while you can mark down your division you are shooting in, the results are posted by total time for the match and with mixed divisions. At another monthly/club level 3-gun matches and USPSA matches in Kansas everything is broken down by division and also listed as overall. At the Gateway 3-Gun matches in Illinois you get practiscore results broken down by division and overall as well.

There are no prizes based on finish at these local matches, tho the Gateway matches do have a drawing for a gun at each match, so does it really matter if showing up with a pump shotgun, police issued 15rd .40 Glock, and department issued AR15 with iron sights gets you lumped in Limited/TacIrons?

I mean, I like the idea of match directors taking the initiative of adding a division for issued guns/"run what you brung"/.... just as long as we aren't neutering the limited division. Especially after I just paid for a 9mm 2011 and TTI tuned mags to head my way to shoot limited with! :cheers:

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At club/local level matches....are any of you really worried about divisions? I'm not being sarcastic, but instead serious.

I hear what you're saying, but to a lot of these "new guys", order of finish at club matches is really important (they aren't going to the "big matches" yet, remember), and getting to compare their score to shooters with very similar equipment is exactly what many of them are looking for. Positive reinforcement is critical at the beginner level more than any other.

Think about it this way: which of these two shooters is more likely to come back and shoot next month... the one who came in 5th in a 9 person division where everyone shot the same kind of stuff, or the one who came in 34th in a 40 person match where 3/4s of the shooters had vastly better equipment?

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At club/local level matches....are any of you really worried about divisions? I'm not being sarcastic, but instead serious.

I hear what you're saying, but to a lot of these "new guys", order of finish at club matches is really important (they aren't going to the "big matches" yet, remember), and getting to compare their score to shooters with very similar equipment is exactly what many of them are looking for. Positive reinforcement is critical at the beginner level more than any other.

Think about it this way: which of these two shooters is more likely to come back and shoot next month... the one who came in 5th in a 9 person division where everyone shot the same kind of stuff, or the one who came in 34th in a 40 person match where 3/4s of the shooters had vastly better equipment?

Neither.....the one who had the most fun and the best attitude when shooting with good people is the guy who is coming back!

My first match, and my buddies first match, I was the guy who came in 35ish out of 45ish people, and my buddy was 40ish out of 45ish people. I also took DEAD LAST in my division at my first big match 2 months later at the Midwest3Gun. We both came back, pushed hard to get better, and now are the "staples" at local matches who help RO and attend the big matches. We brought friends with us who took 10th-15th out of 25 people in TacOps division and have yet to come back, but they had a different attitude about things at the time. There is one guy, and he is one of my favorite shooters there, that takes last or near last at every monthly match while timing out on 1/2-3/4 of the stages.....BUT he is having fun shooting and enjoys hanging out with good people.

The guy who shows up expecting to be in the top 5 and doesn't come back because he is butthurt about taking a bottom 50% because he isn't given a special division.....well, I want him in YOUR squad, not mine. I like having guys in my squads who are both interested in doing well, but also there for fun and to be around good people regardless of how they finish.

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Think about it this way: which of these two shooters is more likely to come back and shoot next month... the one who came in 5th in a 9 person division where everyone shot the same kind of stuff, or the one who came in 34th in a 40 person match where 3/4s of the shooters had vastly better equipment?

Hell I've only been in one 3-gun match and only came in 29th out of 40 and missed targets over and over again. Friggin had the time of my life and can't wait until the next one. Got a temporary fix with a USPSA meet just to run a borrowed stock Glock and went up against several custom 2011's, same results, bottom 25%. I'll be bach.

Ironically, the guy who came in 34th out of 40 is here on this board, username DDustin. He obviously had a hell of a time too and is gearing up for the next one.

https://practiscore.com/match-results/uuid?uuid=E51CB834-0E4F-4943-9D75-7F1B23EC8BCC&page=matchCombined

As a pro friend of mine (Tyler McCutcheon) said, your first match should be all about just trying to not get DQ'ed. Which, makes tons more sense now than it did at the time. I don't think these kind of results get the "I'm never going back again" response that you think.

Also should mention that the guy that won that meet had a stock M&P pro, yet I have a 2011 and suck. Equipment restrictions wouldn't necessarily have the effect you are stating.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
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