Double Jeopardy, NROI Rules.

[acpie360]

As I was reading the NROI rulings on this Double Jeopardy issue, I can't help asking - Yes, the competitor is already being penalized for the miss, but he also gains time by only firing 5 shots on a 6-shot Virginia Count. Shouldn't that being taken into consideration by the NROI? I mean, after all we penalize people for failure to engage. That's a double jeopardy strictly speaking, isn't that?

[Chills1994]

You do realize that USPSA rules/policies do allow for reshoots of classifiers for things like gun malfunctions and brain farts, right?

I'd make his first classifier score count for the match. If he wanted a reshoot, I'd submit the reshoot score to HQ especially if it was the better of the two.

Double jeopardy only applies to law/the Constitution... In much the same way as there is technically no freedom of speech here on the BE forums.

[EkuJustice]

The miss is fine as the target was engaged and the time saved isn't gonna much

Edited February 5, 2014 by EkuJustice

[Nik Habicht]

As I was reading the NROI rulings on this Double Jeopardy issue, I can't help asking - Yes, the competitor is already being penalized for the miss, but he also gains time by only firing 5 shots on a 6-shot Virginia Count. Shouldn't that being taken into consideration by the NROI? I mean, after all we penalize people for failure to engage. That's a double jeopardy strictly speaking, isn't that?

There's no maximum round requirement for any course of fire.....

No Classifier description reads "Engage T1 with exactly 6 rounds....."

[sperman]

As I was reading the NROI rulings on this Double Jeopardy issue, I can't help asking - Yes, the competitor is already being penalized for the miss, but he also gains time by only firing 5 shots on a 6-shot Virginia Count. Shouldn't that being taken into consideration by the NROI? I mean, after all we penalize people for failure to engage. That's a double jeopardy strictly speaking, isn't that?

There's no maximum round requirement for any course of fire.....

No Classifier description reads "Engage T1 with exactly 6 rounds....."

Almost. I'm sure you can guess which classifier this is:

String 1: Engage T1 with five rounds only. Perform a mandatory reload and engage T2 with five rounds only.

String 2: Engage T3 with five rounds only. Perform a mandatory reload and engage T4 with five rounds only.

[Nik Habicht]

It doesn't say exactly 5 rounds......

For as long as I've been in the game, that's always been read as no more than five.....

Next..... :D

[Nik Habicht]

To expand on the rules thing a little:

The WSB stipulates the number of hits that will be scored per target. Each target needs to be scored, and the total number of hits needs to exist somewhere, whether in the A or B or C or D or M column, or some combination of those columns.

We're cautioned not to apply a general penalty -- such as violating stage procedure -- when a more specific penalty such as faulting a line or not engaging a target exists.

Failure to engage (failure to shoot at) is defined as not firing a single round at a given target.

When a classifier states to engage a target with five rounds only, and a shooter fires only four rounds, there is technically no penalty. What do you want to cite him for? Not firing the fifth round, i.e. not engaging the target a fifth time? Nice try -- but failure to engage is defined as with one round, not with the maximum scoring rounds per target. So the penalty doesn't apply because the competitor fired at least one round at the target, as evidenced by the four holes -- but it is the most specific, hence correct penalty to be looked at for the situation at hand.

Hence the correct call is four hits, one mike.

[sperman]

It doesn't say exactly 5 rounds......

For as long as I've been in the game, that's always been read as no more than five.....

Next..... :D

I was confused by this rule when I first got into the sport. I think any reasonable person would read "only 5 rounds" to be the same as "exactly 5 rounds." (outside of the context of USPSA)

However, NROI has made it clear how to apply penalties in this case, so I've accepted it and moved on to bigger and better things to worry about.

To answer your last post, if it were Perman's Practical Shooting League, the penalty would be for failure to follow the WSB, not for a FTE.

[acpie360]

Hey, guys, thanks for the explanation. I was a bit hung up on the double jeopardy side of the ruling and was using FTE as an example of applying double jeopardy for one offense. The Rule 10.2.2. states:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the
written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.
However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during
non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural
penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple
shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply
two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required
rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural).

So the question is - Does the rule "Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense" apply elsewhere besides a Virginia Count stage then? It seems what this rule really says is that if a shooter shoots less rounds than a Virginia Count stage specifies, he gets no PE.

[wgnoyes]

You do realize that USPSA rules/policies do allow for reshoots of classifiers for things like gun malfunctions and brain farts, right?

Or just because the competitor wants to.

I'd make his first classifier score count for the match. If he wanted a reshoot, I'd submit the reshoot score to HQ especially if it was the better of the two.

That's by the rulebook and also what ezwinscore does. The first run at a classifier must be with the match entry gun and division and that counts for the match. If the competitor reshoots the classifier in the same division and if he does better the 2nd time, THAT is the score that is uploaded.

...

[Nik Habicht]

It doesn't say exactly 5 rounds......

For as long as I've been in the game, that's always been read as no more than five.....

Next..... :D

I was confused by this rule when I first got into the sport. I think any reasonable person would read "only 5 rounds" to be the same as "exactly 5 rounds." (outside of the context of USPSA)

However, NROI has made it clear how to apply penalties in this case, so I've accepted it and moved on to bigger and better things to worry about.

To answer your last post, if it were Perman's Practical Shooting League, the penalty would be for failure to follow the WSB, not for a FTE.

OK, failure to follow the WSB how exactly? By not shooting the requisite number of rounds? Wrong penalty -- we have a specific penalty in place that addresses the minimum number of rounds that need to be fired at a target, so you can't use failure to follow the WSB......

You wouldn't use that if a competitor faulted a line, when the WSB states to engage targets from within the FFZ, right? Because again, we have a specific rule/penalty that addresses that....

[Nik Habicht]

Hey, guys, thanks for the explanation. I was a bit hung up on the double jeopardy side of the ruling and was using FTE as an example of applying double jeopardy for one offense. The Rule 10.2.2. states:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural).

So the question is - Does the rule "Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense" apply elsewhere besides a Virginia Count stage then? It seems what this rule really says is that if a shooter shoots less rounds than a Virginia Count stage specifies, he gets no PE.

A miss is not a regular procedural penalty -- in the same sense as a procedural -- but rather it's a very specific penalty that's only called when scoring the targets......

Procedurals are generally called on the line/while the competitor is shooting.....

And you're correct -- for the scenario described of firing at least one round, but not as many rounds as required by the WSB, only miss penalties will be applied.....

[Norther]

Edited February 7, 2014 by six-gun shooter