Versa max or M2 for the wife

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse,

When you see someone yanking on the charge handle of a Versa Max, ask them later what ammo are they using. The answer will likely be "cheap stuff", translation, ammo with crappy crimps.

So your suggesting Benelli guys run better ammo?

[APL-G35]

Are you talking at pro matches jesse or local? I shot a little local shotgun match earlier this year we shared the versamax ran 325rds through it in an afternoon and let other people borrow it to try it out and it never skipped a beat. Granted this is no great endurance test but it ran every junk load possible without missing a beat. I would bet a lot of the guys with malfunctioning vm's are home gunsmiths. The same guys that get their glocks to malfunction too.

[MarkCO]

I'm not trying to knock the VM here I'm just trying to understand why I don't see everyone switching to it if it's so great.

I'll probably get in trouble again, but a lot of it has to do with Marketing. 3Gun is $ driven more than ever in history. 5 years ago, seeing sponsorship from ANY shotgun platform on the prize tables was non-existant, now there are 9+ shooters on Team Benelli. (I was going to say 15+, but it appears the ranks have been severely thinned). There might be a few more guys in the top 30 shooting VMs if Remington had followed through and or offered packages in line with the Benelli offers. I am seeing 5 to 10 shotguns on the prize tables. Remington has taken a different marketing approach that is not focused on the 3Gunners on the Pro-Tour, but they still do sponsor a few there. Last year they put 50 VMs into the hands of 3GN club level competitors, I know the 2014 number is higher. I like their marketing approach, and over the next few years, I think it will pay off very well for them.

Home modded lifters and shell latches are a big issue too. The VM competition makes that a thing of the past, or Jeff at CRums.

Also, 5 years ago, it was M2 in first, then the FN and 11xx. The M2 kicked tail for reliability, but the changes have been significant in the last 5 years. When the top 50 is SO competitive, and shotgun being so personal, it makes total sense to me. I can pick up your pistol and AR, regardless of platform, and shoot it to within 95% of my ability, so too can any decent shooter who can muster 50% at a major. Hand me your shotgun and loading gear...no stinkin' way! Any quality shooter is going to understand that. There are several Pros who have had CarbonArms loading gear for over a year, but they did not use it in a match in 2013 because they did not have time to "practice with it" and wanted to have the off-season to "get good". The fear of the switch with the 3Gun shotgun is real.

When I was racing in auto-sports, same thing. I got an offer to switch manufacturer's, for double the base money and 30% more contingency...could not do it. The time and energy to figure out the new tricks, get comfortable, etc. was too significant, even though it was with a better manufacturer.

Not saying that is the whole answer, but I think it is a good part of it.

Edited February 9, 2014 by MarkCO

[Herbmiester]

My VM tactical got its first clean at just over 1000 rounds, its only bobble was an old 2.5 inch paper hull load. I am now well over 2500 rounds and it still only has had one clean. The Benelli system is excellent no one can argue that but two local waterfowl shooters have broken their Benellis due to a diet of heavy 3 inch steel, now I know thats not what we shoot in the games we play but it is interesting all the same.The remington gas system is simple and I think its this simplicity that will keep it running for a long time.

It was interesting the comment made about Benellis running better ammo. Where I shoot the guys who run Benellis have to run a 1 1/8 light field load as minimum to guarantee reliable cycling yet with a VM I can run the cheap 1oz and 7/8 loads. So perhaps quality is an issue as we know for a fact that the cheap loads won't reliably cycle a Benelli, ergo they aren't used.

FYI. In NZ most people run stock guns as we don't have many (Any) smiths here who know how to tune guns for this game.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Herbmiester

[Jesse Tischauser]

Are you talking at pro matches jesse or local? I shot a little local shotgun match earlier this year we shared the versamax ran 325rds through it in an afternoon and let other people borrow it to try it out and it never skipped a beat. Granted this is no great endurance test but it ran every junk load possible without missing a beat. I would bet a lot of the guys with malfunctioning vm's are home gunsmiths. The same guys that get their glocks to malfunction too.

The majority of our local guys shoot Benelli because the local pros and gunsmith all use them.

I originally figured the issues I saw with the VM were typical new model things. It always takes time to perfect everything once you start mass production. I don't pay as much attention to the platform as I've already kinda written it off for me personally but I'm always looking for the best option for the new shooter. That's probably the #1 question I get. What shotgun is best?

I'm assuming the issues I see now are a combination of things. A lot of new shooters r the buying gun because it's cheaper than a Benelli but they may not know how to clean and lubricate the gun and buy good ammo yet.

I guess I need to buy a VM myself and see. I'd love to have the VM be "the shotgun" as Remington and it's sister companies are all over 3 gun right now. In fact their overwhelming support for the game is THE reason I'll buy one this season to try.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[APL-G35]

I won't argue it's a better gun. The Benelli is the STI of shotgun, I think the vm is the glock. The fit and finish aren't as good, it doesn't feel as nice. That said for us it was a cheaper solution. We built one up at work from a non adjustable field model. We opened up the port, welded the lifter and got a used extension tube. It's my buddies gun. He only has about 800 into it and uses it for everything. He duck hunts with 3.5 shells and will use it to 3 gun this year. I think it's a capable gun that cn fill multiple roles. Rather than have a game gun and a hunting gun he can do both with something that cost less than just one of the others.

Edited February 9, 2014 by APL-G35

[MarkCO]

Benelli M2, straight from the Benelli webpage:

Prep Your M2 Field Shotgun for 3-Gun

It's simple to customize the Benelli M2 Field shotgun for 3-gun competition.

Visit your local dealer to get your M2 and these accessories:

• Extended magazine tube
• Followers
• Larger shell feed area
• Bolt release
• Bolt handles

And that does not even address 922r compliance, but it does put $500 or so in the pocket of the gunsmith.

The VersaMax competition, straight from the Remington webpage:

OVERVIEW:

When we introduced the VERSA MAX shotgun in 2010, we shattered convention and all previous benchmarks for reliability and performance with an autoloading action unlike any that came before it. Today, we’re shattering the perception of what a shotgun should be....again.

For competition or personal defense, no challenge too great for Remington® tactical shotguns. Our lineup includes some of the most trusted and popular shotguns in the industry, each fine-tuned for your specific tactical application. Our centerpiece is the Versa Max® Competition Tactical. We started with our Versa Max Tactical, then outfitted it to meet the 3-gunner’s demands. Features include an 8-shot magazine, with a carbon fiber two-shot extension, oversized controls for handling with gloves, green Cerakote™-coated receiver, an enlarged loading port for faster reloads, express dovetail sights – and more.

KEY FEATURES:

• Most versatile, reliable shotgun on the market.
• Reliably cycles 12-gauge rounds from 2 3/4" to 3 1/2" magnum.
• Versaport™ gas system regulates cycling pressure based on shell length.
• Reduces recoil to that of a 20-gauge.
• Self-cleaning - Continuously cycled thousands of rounds in torture test.
• Synthetic stock and fore-end with overmolded grips.
• Oversized bolt release button, bolt release and trigger guard
• Extended 10+1 capacity, with carbon fiber, two-shot magazine extension tube
• Pro Bore Extended Choke System
• Enlarged loading port
• Raised rib includes fiber optic front bead and shallow rear XS® express sights

[MarkCO]

The M2 is the Glock, no question.

[APL-G35]

Shear #'s and those at the top of the game would dictate otherwise.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The M2 is the Glock, no question.

Mark it's quite obvious why your so enthusiastic about the Remington. I don't blame you. Capital is is a beautiful thing. Maybe you're right they need to giveaway more free ones and pay some pro shooters enough to like it too.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

I won't argue it's a better gun. The Benelli is the STI of shotgun, I think the vm is the glock. The fit and finish aren't as good, it doesn't feel as nice. That said for us it was a cheaper solution. We built one up at work from a non adjustable field model. We opened up the port, welded the lifter and got a used extension tube. It's my buddies gun. He only has about 800 into it and uses it for everything. He duck hunts with 3.5 shells and will use it to 3 gun this year. I think it's a capable gun that cn fill multiple roles. Rather than have a game gun and a hunting gun he can do both with something that cost less than just one of the others.

Well said! I know if I was just starting out I would probably choose the VM due to it's bang for the buck over everything else.

[shopgun]

As the OP's main reason for a new gun was recoil reduction, choosing the VM is a no brainer. I have approx. 2000 through mine and it will run some incredibly light loads. I just tested 6 different hull types loaded with 15 gr. of PB and 1 1/16th oz of 7 1/2's. Thats about 20% less powder than the start load in the manual, 18 to 19 gr depending on components for a 1100 fps load ! Ran perfectly and the hulls landed about 6 ft away. I have NEVER shot a softer recoiling load. Gonna have to see how it works on poppers. One thing that is a mystery to me is why Remington did not start out with a shorter LOP that would accomodate kids and women since they include spacers to increase LOP.

[APL-G35]

I think the vm is a great gun I use my dads in competition. I think Remington does a great job creating a very useable package at a great price point. Well ahead of Benelli in that regard. Give me the choice of a churched up vm or a taran tactical? I'll take the taran version every time. It's like the m2i or cheely version of a shotgun.

[Jesse Tischauser]

As the OP's main reason for a new gun was recoil reduction, choosing the VM is a no brainer. I have approx. 2000 through mine and it will run some incredibly light loads. I just tested 6 different hull types loaded with 15 gr. of PB and 1 1/16th oz of 7 1/2's. Thats about 20% less powder than the start load in the manual, 18 to 19 gr depending on components for a 1100 fps load ! Ran perfectly and the hulls landed about 6 ft away. I have NEVER shot a softer recoiling load. Gonna have to see how it works on poppers. One thing that is a mystery to me is why Remington did not start out with a shorter LOP that would accomodate kids and women since they include spacers to increase LOP.

Sorry fur getting side tracked. Back to the OP.

If you want a light recoiling shotgun due to back issues the VM Is soft but it's heavier than an M2. so that might it be so great for a bad back or woman shooter. It's always best to go shoot both yourself and decide. Would you buy a car without driving one just cause you read it was good on a forum? Nope!

[MarkCO]

Shear #'s and those at the top of the game would dictate otherwise.

Really, I don't know of any running a "stock" M2.

The M2 is the Glock, no question.

Mark it's quite obvious why your so enthusiastic about the Remington. I don't blame you. Capital is is a beautiful thing. Maybe you're right they need to giveaway more free ones and pay some pro shooters enough to like it too.

It is? I shoot it because it is the best platform on the market. Yes, I have made some income from improvements, but frankly, the new Competition model will reduce that income. Not for the $, but for what is best.

I think the vm is a great gun I use my dads in competition. I think Remington does a great job creating a very useable package at a great price point. Well ahead of Benelli in that regard. Give me the choice of a churched up vm or a taran tactical? I'll take the taran version every time. It's like the m2i or cheely version of a shotgun.

Um, there is your STI "like" M2, a Taran Tactical. Not even the same gun once Taran is done with them.

[APL-G35]

True just like most at the top of the pistol sports aren't running a factory sti either. A tuned sti and a tuned m2 are what's winning major matches and championships.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Shear #'s and those at the top of the game would dictate otherwise.

Really, I don't know of any running a "stock" M2.

The M2 is the Glock, no question.

Mark it's quite obvious why your so enthusiastic about the Remington. I don't blame you. Capital is is a beautiful thing. Maybe you're right they need to giveaway more free ones and pay some pro shooters enough to like it too.

It is? I shoot it because it is the best platform on the market. Yes, I have made some income from improvements, but frankly, the new Competition model will reduce that income. Not for the $, but for what is best.

I think the vm is a great gun I use my dads in competition. I think Remington does a great job creating a very useable package at a great price point. Well ahead of Benelli in that regard. Give me the choice of a churched up vm or a taran tactical? I'll take the taran version every time. It's like the m2i or cheely version of a shotgun.

Um, there is your STI "like" M2, a Taran Tactical. Not even the same gun once Taran is done with them.

Dude come on. You used to shoot an SLP before the VM. I noticed you didn't like Benelli for whatever reason 4 years ago when I first started.

[MarkCO]

I shot an 1100 before the SLP, went to the VersaMax after the SLP...paid for all of them.

Ever hear of 922r? That is the reason I won't own a Benelli that is set-up for 3Gun.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Lol!

I've heard if it but I've never heard of any 3 gunners being imprisoned.

[APL-G35]

Wait until Greg jordan and Keith Garcia start busting people for 922r compliance at matches.

[Mike41]

While the spotlight is on VM and Benelli watch out for Browning on the high end and Stoeger on the low end to take some market share!

Mike

[bigbrowndog]

Mark, is Kalirado becoming way more like Kalifernia??

trapr

[MarkCO]

Mark, is Kalirado becoming way more like Kalifernia??

trapr

It is that DBA, Denver, Boulder, Aurora that is getting us. Kind of Like CA is getting the nation.

[bmiller]

Lol!

I've heard if it but I've never heard of any 3 gunners being imprisoned.

I am just shooting for a hobby. But 922 was the reason I sold my trusty M1 and bought the Versa-max. I guess I am just nervous, but I didn't think it was worth putting my liberties at risk.

[HardChrome]

I started off with a versamax but I switched to a M2.