Jesse Tischauser Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Can any of you veteran 3 gunners tell me why we arrived at 8+1 capacity for shotguns in 3 gun? Recently it's gone from 8+1 to just 9 in the tube before the beep. A lot of us run 9, 10, 11, 12, or even 13 round tubes now. Why don't we start with 10 or 12 or 12 in the shotgun? Extra ammo at the start would be easier and faster for everyone. Just curious as shotgun loading has and always will be a barrier to entry into the sport for new shooter. Edited February 2, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Sure I can tell you how we got here. To start with you have to remeber where "we" came from. #-gun started as the S.O.F. World Championship TACTICAL 3-Gun Match.....they really ment the word TACTICAL. The rule for shotguns was a 22" barrel with an extention 1" past the end of the barrel. Most shotguns of the time were 18 1/2"-21" barrels and the mag tube fit flush wirth the end of the barrel. It was figured out that a Benelli with a 21" barrel with a 1" long extended choke and a custom made tube 1" past the barrel would hold 11 at the start (9 in the tube, one on the carrier, and one in the chamber). Since no-one made tubes at the time, except some weird guy with a cammo shotgun, and the 1" past the barrel applied to shotguns with an 18 1/2" barrel as well. ( so from the receiver you could have 19 1/2" of tube) Now keep all that in mind, Benelli,s still had a one round advantage over other guns because you could load the carrier ( if you call it "ghost loading" Jesse, I'll feed amphetimines to your dogs....I know where you live). In order to avoid an equipment race, and to make it so a Remington 1100 could be equal to a Benelli it was decided to limit tactical, (which combined iron sight and optic) to 8+1. After all loading a tactical shotgun is part of the skill test! this allowed the "new guy" to go and buy a rack grade gun and go race....does that sound familier??? Enter IPSC and USPSa rules. It was found that shells everywhere are NOT the same length, and at matches where a person couldn't get the same type of ammo, their gun may or may not pass the gage! You might find that your 8 round tube now only holds 7, or your 8 round plus a little wiggle room now holds 9...welcome to open. It was the ambiguity of shell length that led to the standardized "9 rounds at the start "so all guns were "equal". Then we relaxed barrel length restrictions and now a long barrel with a long tube could play right along with the tactical guns as long as they only started with 9....and now we have "tactical" shotguns that are longer than the guns used by guys in open years ago, and they are far from Tactical. Personally I miss the 8+1 because it took some skill and planning....but as I said before, they do things differently in the past! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I miss 8+1 too. Except at Blue Ridge where it's still the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morpheus Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 on that note why are saiga 12's considered open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Because they are magazine fed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gondo Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I miss 8+1 too. Except at Blue Ridge where it's still the rule. So you can only start with 8+1 at blue ridge or that is max capacity for the gun period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gondo Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Sure I can tell you how we got here. To start with you have to remeber where "we" came from. #-gun started as the S.O.F. World Championship TACTICAL 3-Gun Match.....they really ment the word TACTICAL. The rule for shotguns was a 22" barrel with an extention 1" past the end of the barrel. Most shotguns of the time were 18 1/2"-21" barrels and the mag tube fit flush wirth the end of the barrel. It was figured out that a Benelli with a 21" barrel with a 1" long extended choke and a custom made tube 1" past the barrel would hold 11 at the start (9 in the tube, one on the carrier, and one in the chamber). Since no-one made tubes at the time, except some weird guy with a cammo shotgun, and the 1" past the barrel applied to shotguns with an 18 1/2" barrel as well. ( so from the receiver you could have 19 1/2" of tube) Now keep all that in mind, Benelli,s still had a one round advantage over other guns because you could load the carrier ( if you call it "ghost loading" Jesse, I'll feed amphetimines to your dogs....I know where you live). In order to avoid an equipment race, and to make it so a Remington 1100 could be equal to a Benelli it was decided to limit tactical, (which combined iron sight and optic) to 8+1. After all loading a tactical shotgun is part of the skill test! this allowed the "new guy" to go and buy a rack grade gun and go race....does that sound familier??? Enter IPSC and USPSa rules. It was found that shells everywhere are NOT the same length, and at matches where a person couldn't get the same type of ammo, their gun may or may not pass the gage! You might find that your 8 round tube now only holds 7, or your 8 round plus a little wiggle room now holds 9...welcome to open. It was the ambiguity of shell length that led to the standardized "9 rounds at the start "so all guns were "equal". Then we relaxed barrel length restrictions and now a long barrel with a long tube could play right along with the tactical guns as long as they only started with 9....and now we have "tactical" shotguns that are longer than the guns used by guys in open years ago, and they are far from Tactical. Personally I miss the 8+1 because it took some skill and planning....but as I said before, they do things differently in the past! Sorry I'm ignorant to your comment... Why should we not call it ghost loading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I miss 8+1 too. Except at Blue Ridge where it's still the rule. So you can only start with 8+1 at blue ridge or that is max capacity for the gun period? Max capacity is 8+1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I like the 8 + 1 as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I thought ghost loading was when you grab four for a quad load and have them disappear from your hand on the way to the gun............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Well Gondo.....do you own any dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gondo Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Well Gondo.....do you own any dogs? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I thought ghost loading was when you grab four for a quad load and have them disappear from your hand on the way to the gun............ This is the Hansel and Gretal load technique. Leaving a trail of shells back to the start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) I agree there needs to be a limit at start but if be In favor of more versus less. Say whatever tube fits on a 26-28" bird gun. When I used to keep a spare M1 around as a new guy loaner gun I'd always load it up with 14 and tell the new guy they were shooting open. It was more fun for all involved to not have to watch the new guy load out of a trap bag on the clock. From a personal competitive standpoint I like the 8+1 too. The long tubes are ugly and they are a turn off to the Tactical crowd but then again so is a shotgun in general. So who cares what they think. Edited February 3, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehorn Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 While I'm not a huge fan of running a 12 round tube, I do because of the options it affords me in stage and load planning. I think with limiting everything to 8, you eliminate some of the stage planning aspect of the game and turn the shotgun portion of the game into a loading race. We all know loading the shotgun is a huge part of the game, but I think with 8 round limits, it places an even greater emphasis on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gondo Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Safe! So once again i was just wondering why should we not call it ghost loading? I would really like to know.... if you can riddle me not it would be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) From a personal competitive standpoint I like the 8+1 too. The long tubes are ugly I think it's only ugly if it sticks out way past the end of the barrel. I hope so at least. I'm putting a +7 on my 26" Benelli, which should make it flush with the barrel with an extended choke tube. Get a +9/10 on a shorter barrel and yeah it's kinda funny looking. I've always wondered how they handle and swing. Just a guess but I'm assuming the 8 round limit came up because that's the most that any factory gun has. Anything beyond that is aftermarket no matter what gun you have. Edited February 3, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 yeah its kinda funny lookin just seein a barrel longer than 22" being called "tactical", but who cares what anybody thinks, if they wanted rules followed and read they should'nt have made sooooo many, they should only apply to everyone else, and I should be able to run whatever I want if I think its OK, besides more is automatically better!!! it doesn't matter if its more crap, its gotta be better because its MORE!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Gondo, When I first heard this term a guy was trying to describe how a gun could be "jammed" with a shell on the carrier and yet it would automatically know not to release a second one on to the carrier, It,s like a load that isn't really there he said....Ghost! I couldn't understand what the heck he was talking about so I finally said show me, so he took his trusty M1 loaded the tube full, dropped one in the chamber, CLOSED the bolt and THEN hit the shell release lever sending one out of the tube and on to the carrier...and proudly said now the ghost has loaded my gun! I did show him how to load the carrier the propper way, but it was a very funny exchange and it caught on. Soon all the left coast shooters were "ghost loading", and it just always kinda drove me up the wall because over half didn't even understand how to laod the carrier. The half joke withg Jesse is that his two dogs are the size of Volkswagons with fur on them, and it amuses me to think of them all hyped up! Now that you have caused me to do all this typing you owe me a beer or two sometime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gondo Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Gondo, When I first heard this term a guy was trying to describe how a gun could be "jammed" with a shell on the carrier and yet it would automatically know not to release a second one on to the carrier, It,s like a load that isn't really there he said....Ghost! I couldn't understand what the heck he was talking about so I finally said show me, so he took his trusty M1 loaded the tube full, dropped one in the chamber, CLOSED the bolt and THEN hit the shell release lever sending one out of the tube and on to the carrier...and proudly said now the ghost has loaded my gun! I did show him how to load the carrier the propper way, but it was a very funny exchange and it caught on. Soon all the left coast shooters were "ghost loading", and it just always kinda drove me up the wall because over half didn't even understand how to laod the carrier. The half joke withg Jesse is that his two dogs are the size of Volkswagons with fur on them, and it amuses me to think of them all hyped up! Now that you have caused me to do all this typing you owe me a beer or two sometime! Ha they don't let me drink anymore but I'll buy you one when I come take a class from u hopefully one day, just out of curiosity how come the gun doesn't spit another shell out when it cycles and u have one "ghost loaded"? Oh and sorry you had to type so long of an answer... Just think of it as dexterity practice for your fingers lol but if you are going to be our benelli historian and all around shotgun expert then you must be prepared for these things occassionaly... I'm sure you will give me a riddle of an answer now so please let's hear it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPeel Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Now I know where ghost loading came from I'll throw in a round of Bookers or Blantons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Don't think of me as "our" Benelli historian, because this whole thread was about where 8+1 came from and had nothing to do with Benelli! Now since you don't drink, I doubt I should answer, but Mr. Peel has offerd up some propper libation, so he is carring your end of the boat so to speak, so now we will learn something about Benellis. The ways to get a shell onto the carrie of a Benelli is A) to pull the trigger, which pushed the shell release latch up which allows the "tail" of the shell catch to swing over twards the middle of the gun causing the nose of the shell catch to be pushed to the right which releases a shell, or by pushing up on the little shell release lever, which once again allows the shell catch to release a shell. If you have already manually pushed a shell down on the carrier, and chambered a shell, pushing the shell release, or pulling the trigger doesn't do anything, as the rim of the shell THAT IS ALREADY ON THE CARRIER doesn't allow the tail of the shell catch to move.....I see lever,s, Mr. Buchanan saw "ghosts", your call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 If you have already manually pushed a shell down on the carrier, and chambered a shell, pushing the shell release, or pulling the trigger doesn't do anything, as the rim of the shell THAT IS ALREADY ON THE CARRIER doesn't allow the tail of the shell catch to move..... Interesting, I didn't know that part, thanks Uncle Kurt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunCat Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Now I know where ghost loading came from I'll throw in a round of Bookers or Blantons! Dang, if I had known some of Kentucky’s finest was up for grabs I would have made up a story for you. Edited February 3, 2014 by GunCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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