Working up a load Berrys 124gr HBRN

[kaiserkudo]

Hey guys,

The only powder available to me here is ADI AP-50. The popular AP70 (Hogdon Universal) has been out for 9 months and is likely to be out for atleast 3-6 months further.

There is no Hogdon equivalent to AP-50, which is described as a medium fast burning powder for .38 special target loads.

The only published data I can find for AP50 and my bullet weight is for cast lead .355 conical nose projectile. The is data listed for a 130gr Berrys RN but it only lists AS30 (Clays) and AP70 (Clays Universal).

According the the ADI equivalent chart- this AP-50 is closest to e3, Win 231 AA2 and VV n320 in its burning rates. However I cant find anyone using it for 9mm and the published data is quite slim- making me think that AP50 is not suitable?

Ill be shooting with a CZ SP01 Shadow- looking to make minor PF in IPSC.

Anyone care to offer some advice?

I have attached the ADI data table for 9mm luger which may help.

Cheers

[kaiserkudo]

I have noticed, looking at the attached chart- that AP50, for want of a better term, is a lot more 'peaky' than the other powders.

Wat I mean is, looking at all the lines with AP50 data- it has the greatest fluctuation in pressure from start to max loads. The starting pressures are sgnificantly lower than the other powders, and it consistently has higher max pressures than AP70.

Im guessing this makes AP50 a lot less forgiving- and more likely for me to make a big boo boo?

[kaiserkudo]

Just an update- I now have managed to get 2 pounds of Win 231 and a pound of WSF to try out.

Cost was $70 per pound- yes,you read that right.

[G17]

Just an update- I now have managed to get 2 pounds of Win 231 and a pound of WSF to try out.

Cost was $70 per pound- yes,you read that right.

Did you order it online or find it in town?

[kaiserkudo]

Can't freight any powders here in Australia, everything is pick up only. I found it at a smaller regional store in Qld. It was a 5 hr round trip but atleast I have some now I guess.

[rtp]

Just an update- I now have managed to get 2 pounds of Win 231 and a pound of WSF to try out.

Cost was $70 per pound- yes,you read that right.

What's normal pricing for down under?

$70/lb...just...wow!

[kaiserkudo]

Yep - what's even more of a kick in the guts is that the Hogdon powders are manufactured here in Australia by ADI.

ADI AS30 = Hogdon Clays - Aussie price $50 per 500grams.

ADI AP70n = Hogdon Clays Universal - Aussie price $50 per 500grams.

I think the above two retail for about $18/lb, right?

The Winchester powders have been $50-70 per lb for a while now.

[Justsomeguy]

Well... unless the Aussie dollar is only worth about 40 cents American that is what I would call outrageous. That would make a decent automobile cost you about 100,000 Aussie dollars to be on par. You need a change of politicians.

[Nzshooter1]

$70 a pound is pretty standard here in New Zealand for AP70, or at least the last lot I bought was. I think the last time I saw win 231 it was $330 for 4 pounds.

Not that I really follow it much but the aussie and US dollars aren't usually too far apart, the NZ dollar on the other hand is lucky to make it to 85 US cents.

[kaiserkudo]

Everything here is geared towards discouraging people from shooting. The outrageous license fees and waiting times, over the top rules and regulations, cost of supplies and the continual closure of ranges. I try and bring as many people as I can along to shoots - we need more numbers in our sport or things will only get worse. Gee Ive gone a bit off topic there. Time to go to the man cave

[BeerBaron]

Ap50 is fine for 9mm minor in a cz with a 124gn plated. I use it in a shadow too with 124gn plated frontiers.

Start at 3.3gn and do 10 rounds at 3.3 3.5 and 3.7. I expect 3.5-3.6 will be the sweet spot hitting about 130pf out of your shadow and shooting fairly flat at 25 yards.

Btw you are paying way too much for powder. In Sydney aid powder is $40 for 500grams but people only buy those for testing. 2kg (over 4lb) is around $130. That's $32.50 a pound. Still exxy but a lot better than $50 or $70!

[BeerBaron]

Also I found the plated cmj pills need about 7-10% more powder to achieve the same velocity as a coated lead pill of the same weight and shape. Out of the same gun.

Also I'd reccomemed trying oal around 1.080. That's what was most accurate with 124 rn cmj in

My shadow.

[kaiserkudo]

Thanks BeerBaron. I think it was one of your posts that prompted me to pick up the phone and order the Aussie Shadow mate package.

I'll play with Ap50 loads and if it works well i'll definitely buy the more economical 2kg jug.

[BeerBaron]

No worries. The shadow mate is great value. I'm about to buy a second one just so I can have 6 mags with basepads! lol.

AP50 is a great 9mm powder. any load above about 3.2gn should fill about half the case, so double charges become almost impossible. as a test when I work a new load I purposely double charge a case to get an idea of what it looks like so I know what to watch for. 3.5gn X 2 will be over the case rim so it's easy to spot.

AP70 gives good case fill too but for me it's just a little slow burning for a 9mm minor load.

AS30 is too fast and gives very small case fill which can give big variance in velocity and accuracy.

Yeah the 2kg bottle is a decent saving. basically pay for 3 pound get 1 free.

I haven't tried the berry's pills but I do like the idea of hollow base to give more bearing surface. the 124gn CMJ frontiers I use are a bit short for my liking. but the 135gn are a nice size and I use those quite a bit these days.

My advice would be this:

load up 10 round each at those powder increments I mentioned.

before chrono, shoot some 3-5 round groups and see which groups best at 10 or 15 yards.

then go chrono and ensure your most accurate/flattest load makes PF.

if it does now load up some more at different OAL's.

try 1.060, 1.070, 1.080, 1.090 and if you like 1.100.

I tried some different OAL's with feralshooter and we found the shorter OAL's grouped better. I think with the short CZ chamber you don't want your projie sitting right up against the lands. you want a little gap before it engages the rifling. that seems to be the theory anyway. plus too long and you get feeding issues etc.

I now load between 1.070 and 1.080 with the frontiers and they shoot very nicely out of both my shadows.

Please let me know how you go with the berry's. I was keen to try them as I like the hollow base idea. But they are nearly 30% more than I pay for frontiers AND I also heard some complaints about berry's having the copper plating coming off. I've recovered shot frontiers and even the rifling marks do not go right through the coating in my CZ barrel (I think my tanfog barrel is a bit tighter and does seem to break through the coating a little). they basically look like you could load and shoot them again! they are the .356 sized projies. I haven't used the .355 (probably too small) nor the .357 (only come in 147gn in that diameter).

BTW that chart is so far off in some loads as to be almost useless.

look at the AP50 load with a .356 115 LRN. they state max of 4gn for 1110 FPS and 34000psi. yet for a 135gn cast LRN sized .355 they state max load is a pussy 3.3gn for also max pres of 34000. now that could be explained if COAL was drastically different but it's not. of course case volume will change, but I would doubt it would change things that much. of course they are all way conservative. what they state as max loads for most pills will only barely make minor PF...

[kaiserkudo]

Will keep you updated- still waiting for my PTA to come through!

The Berry 124 gr HBRN - TP - (thick plate) have a thicker copper coating than the standard RN- hopefully thay may improve their integrity during flight. They are .356 sized.

First day off work + pta acquired= ill be down at the range doing load development.

Reason i chose the Berrys was purely because the distributor/importer is an hour drive away from me. After this lot ill probably try a cheaper moly coated pill and compare the results.

Cheers

Edited January 23, 2014 by kaiserkudo