Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!
FireShooter

Precision rifle series

Recommended Posts

Do the better bolt gun guys use a particular builder for their rifles? I would think that a very finely tuned rifle could possible run into difficulties under dirty conditions. I shoot a 6.5 creed AI, but it is heavier than a brick. I haven't done the match setting yet, but would like to get started. I won't be a world class shooter, but I certainly want to participate as competitively as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use GA Precision and Crescent Customs, who is owned by Moon who used to work at GAP. Both excellent builders. My team mate has also used Surgeon. A lot of good smiths out there for bolt guns now.

How much that AI weigh in at? Most of mine are around 17 pounds decked out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the topic of Gas Guns, the 6.5 Grendel will out shoot the .308, and that depends on the shooter too. JP makes great stuff but you can't compair the 223, 6.5 and 308 Gas Guns to other calibers, that is why there are differnt classes for guns. If the PRS lets you use what ever you want, even the 6mm is more accurate and reaches out further than a 6.5 Grendel. BUT, the Grendel and 308 are also good for hunting and I would grab a Grendel over a .308 any day.

JP is coming out soon with there Gredels, is shows that on there site, and I imagine it will be way more accurte than many out there. My Grendel just off a bench at home shooting for fun, I drill 3/4" MOA at 100 yards all day long. Take time and you can do that at 200 yards and bang 6" steel targets at 600 yards with no problem. Many people shoot the Grendel out to 1,000 yards easily. Super Sonic to 1,250 yards with 123gr projectiles.

So a 308 will work, but they are heavy (AR-10 platform) and lots of recoil. The AR-15 platform is much lighter and the Grendel is one of the top calibers for long range shooting and hunting. Also the Grendel is out there in bolt guns too but that is where personal preferance comes in. I vote for MSR's (Modern Sporting Rifles, AR-15 for the newbies).

I know people who are going from bolt guns to MSR's because of hunting with them is on the rise and that is a big factor in using them more these days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take a Grendel, blow the shoulder out to give it an ackley type shoulder so it will hold more powder, and shoot flatter and farther before going subsonic, and you have the 6ar turbo. According to their website, making brass is as easy as loading Grendel brass, and shooting it. I have no personal experience with this caliber, but am very intrigued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an AR chambered in 6mmAR. Essentially a 6 BR that feeds in a small frame AR-15. I considered the turbo, but went the easy route. I know the 40' shoulder ammo will cycle just fine in an AR, but...

It uses 6.8 Grendel mags and an ARP bolt.

Fun little rifle. Too bad the brass is so expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom, does the 6 ar do what the web site says it will do? I am very interested in a project like this, and I may have to choose between a new top end for one of my lowers or a new " budget level" long range rifle. Something like a savage in 6.5 cm or 260. For right now I could only choose one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't use any of those rounds or a semi auto if you plan to shoot long range precision rifle matches and be competitive. There's a reason the people who win use bolt guns in 6mm(.243/6mm Creddmoor/6x47) or 6.5mm(6.5 Creedmoor/.260/6.5x47).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't use any of those rounds or a semi auto if you plan to shoot long range precision rifle matches and be competitive. There's a reason the people who win use bolt guns in 6mm(.243/6mm Creddmoor/6x47) or 6.5mm(6.5 Creedmoor/.260/6.5x47).

The decision making process between just those six cartridges is difficult enough!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, somebody convince me.

I really would like to hear the reason why people that win do so with a bolt gun.

Why would a bolt gun shooting exactly the same caliber be an advantage?

When I first started shooting back in the 70's, the consensus of opinion was that no semi-auto could hang with a good bolt action.

I was told that one big advantage of the bolt gun was the chassis, because a one piece bedded stock gave better support to the barrel/action.

Another widely held held notion was that the chamber / cartridge case had to be a loose fit in the gas guns to be reliable in feeding and ejection.

This was the underlying reason that manufacturers sold small base dies for the SA guns.

Conventional wisdom stated that a bolt gun allows a reloaded case to fit better and align with the bore more consistently.

If any of that was ever true, I can't see it anymore.

With modern manufacturing techniques and the proliferation of free floated barrels, I just don't see any significant difference in accuracy between my bolt and gas guns.

In fact, in 40+ years of load development, the very best group I ever shot was from a varmint model AR-15.

A 1/2 MOA rifle is a 1/2 MOA rifle regardles of the platform that launches the bullet.

I could see an advantage if the bolt gun permitted hotter loads or had a longer barrel that translated into higher velocity.

However, most of the tubes I have seen on Precision Rifle bolt guns are around 20 to 22 inches. No big difference there.

Could the answer be reliability?

A good quality AR that is well maintained usually runs flawlessly. That just doesn't seem to be an issue.

BTW, a sticky bolt on extraction, or a bolt that wont close over a reloaded round will shut down a bolt gun just as well as a gasser.

So what am I missing here? Where is the advantage of the bolt action?

Enlighten me.

Tls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me its three things.

Lock time -- a big deal on many positional shots when I need to break the shot right NOW. Not about now as the crosshairs pass that 8" plate at 800 yards standing. Especially when you only have 30 seconds to make 5 shots and everypoint moves you up a position on the leaderboard.

Three Recoils -- Its tougher to maintain a follow through...especially on the bigger framed AR's. Having to deal with the rifle recoil, BCG moving back, and then moving forward. All of these will work to make a shot miss when your position isn't perfect. And shooting off the odd barricades and positions it rarely is. Shooting a large frame AR is different than the smaller framed ones.

Immediate follow up shot --- Its actually a bad thing. Forcing a quick second shot because of a miss and rushing a bad position, breathing, wind call, etc.

Those were the few things I've noticed when I had my DPMS 260. The rifle shot .75 moa but my hits off barricades were worse than a bolt gun for me.

I wish I could be competitive with the big framed AR's because I think they look awesome...I've almost ordered a gap10 a dozen times but I just dont have use for it.

As for scopes most people are running some in the 5-20 power. The ability to focus down to 5-10 yards is nice for certain stages. Normally people wont use above the mid-teens for a match unless you get into a paper stage.

Most rifles will weigh in the 15ish lb range. It soaks up some recoil and allows you to spot hits better.

A good pack is mandatory since many matches have you shooting quite a ways away your vehicles if you can get back there at all.

ALL THAT BEING SAID!

If you've got a rifle you like just go shoot a match! Just like when you started with USPSA or IDPA your not gonna win your first match anyhow so just go shoot. The guys that shoot these PRS matches are the same types of guys that shoot pistol matches. All good guys who enjoy shooting. No attitude and always willing to help. Go shoot and figure out what works for you.

Edited by rrflyer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me the biggest deference is lock time. You might have the best trigger in the world on your AR but the slow lock time will feel like a old school flint lock when you fire it on a wobbly barricade.

George of GA Precision builds some of the most accurate bolt guns AND gassers out there....I have never seen him run a gasser in a competition.

Running a gasser at a big tactical match is like running a single stack 1911 in a 3 gun match, yes you can do it, but there are way better options out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i shoot on the PRS, they're a few matches that I wouldn't be scared to run my gap10 in but I never choose to run it over my bolt guns. Take for example at K&M last year, we shot in that rain for 2 days. That fine sand and mud got in everything and gave gas gun fits. Don't get me wrong bolt guns went down too but not as much as the gasser. My gap10 in 6.5cm is a flat hammer but ill still never use it over my 6mm creedmoor bolt rifles. The PRS is about accuracy and speed in most cases however the precision needed to make a lot of the shots the difference in a bolt gun and gas gun isn't a factor. When we shot the finale last year which was the top 50 in points for the year, I don't remember seeing many is any gas guns in the mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Registration for the Steel City Precison Rifle Match is about to open.

The match has moved from November last year to September for 2014 and will be a 2 day event.

I will definately enter, but I am undecided about which rifle to shoot.

I could go with the AR 15 I shot last year. There will be no targets beyond 725 yds, so I may stick with it.

I just want to develop a better load with heavier bullets.

I could also go with my Hvy barrel .308 M700. The problem is that the gun is out of the box stock and not competition ready.

First I would have to put it in a decent chassis. In stock configuration there is no magazine.

Being a lefty my options are somewhat limited.

The AI chassis is a possibility but it is massively heavy. The gun already tips the scale at 11.5 lbs.

I'm leaning toward an XLR.

The rifle also has a 26" barrel. I could have it cut down, but do I have the time? Would I even want to considering that I want all the velocity I can get from the .308?

The factory trigger is unacceptable for competition, needs to be replaced with something decent. Timney?

I've started developing loads for both guns pending a decision.

The 700 is the early favorite. Right now I'm just shooting 3 shot groups to set working max for several bullet and powder combinations.

However, the big beast is showing a lot of promise. These 3 shots groups are running from .25 to .6 MOA at 100 yds with Varget and Nosler 168's.

post-6467-0-27145800-1394991773_thumb.jp post-6467-0-34195100-1394991593_thumb.jp post-6467-0-86060800-1394991703_thumb.jp

I started testing the AR with 75 gr Hornadys last week. I started with about 22 gr Varget and 5 shot groups were running just over .5 MOA.

Unfortunately, as the power charge climbed over 23gr. the groups started to open up to over 1". NOT good.

I will continue the testing with the Hornady bullets, but also bought some 73 gr Bergers and some 8208 XBR to try.

Got to do better or the AR is on the shelf for this match.

Edited by 38superman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why cut it down? 26" is fine. My match rifle barrels are between 25-28" in length. Trigger might be able to be tuned but a Timney is a good replacement. McRee offers a left hand chassis that's not overly expensive. I would definitely shoot the .308 bolt gun over a .223 semi auto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Rob,

I only thought to cut it down because most custom builds are around the 20" length.

It would cut weight and make the gun more portable.

The expense, and time are major concerns. Also don't know if having the barrel cut and crowned is going to affect my accuracy.

It also may render my load data invalid and force me to start over on load development.

I will propably try to tune the factory trigger before purchasing a new one.

I will look at the McRee. Thanks for the tip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Rob,

I only thought to cut it down because most custom builds are around the 20" length.

No they aren't. Custom builds are what the buyer wants. Don't get caught in the internet "you need a short barrel" stigma. Most barrels on guys shooting this sport seriously are in the 24-28" range so length isn't a problem. You will get some more velocity which is good in a .308 for this sport. It shouldn't take long for a smith to do the cut down and recrown work though but I would just shoot it first and see how it shoots and if it shoots fine then run with it. If anything maybe take an inch off and recrown just to make sure you have a nice sharp crown. Shouldn't mess with your data much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob,

My experience is limited and I'm just going by what I have seen so far.

With that in mind I will probably leave the barrel alone, at least for now.

I think I will just try to tune the trigger and put the gun in a better chassis.

I hope to keep the weight to no more that 13 lbs.

Just out of curiosity, what do you shoot and what does the gun weigh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually shoot my 6.5 Creedmoor in most tactical/sniper comps but also have a .243 and 300WM if the match was better suited for them. Also have a .308 I practice with and a .308 barrel for a switch barrel if I need to compete with a .308 due to match rules. All my rifles are in the 16-17 pound range with optics and mags.

My 300WM

SHC12D1A.jpg

6.5 Creedmoor before and after paint

5759375612_e042a97697_b.jpg

DSCN1812_zps04e68a9a.jpg

And .243/308 switch barrel

DSCN1650.jpg

Edited by Rob01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice looking rifles Rob! We had a practice day at woodys this weekend. Wow, it is a lot harder than it looks on the videos! I have shot all my life, but it was so hard to hold steady at long range. Also the wind was blowing pretty good, and it was very gusty. I am still gathering gear, so I don't have any bags yet, which would have made a tremendous difference. I did pick up a bushnell 6x24 with a G2 reticle, and oh my gosh,am I in love with this scope! Over all it was very challenging but also very fun. Looking forward to my first match. Ringing steel at 500yds was a new thrill. I better tell my accountant and financial advisor to hang on. She ain't going to like this.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Steve. I will be down at Woody's in a few weeks for the Tarheel 3 gun match. Buying some property in Lillington now for when I retire in a few years so hopefully I will be down there more often.

Go get some poly pellets or also known as doll fill and fill up a sock and use it as a rear bag. Work great and cost about $3. It's what i use for matches.

Yeah the G2 reticle is a good one. Makes it easier for holds. Long range is an addictive sport and expensive at times ;) Have fun. It's what's most important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just checking out 155 Berger Hybrids for my .308.

I notice that even though they are 13 gr. lighter, they are about .055 longer.

That means if loaded to magazine length I am giving up a little internal capacity.

I'm hoping to drive this bullet at least 100 -200 fps faster that the 168's.

Higher velocity and a slightly higher ballistic coeficient will certainly help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take a look at the Hornady 178 BTHP as well. A .530 BC and you should be able to get them to 2700fps pretty easy in a 26" barrel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll give them a try.

What powders do you like with the Hornady 178?

I'm having a tough time getting 168's to run that fast.

RE15 maybe?

Edited by 38superman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varget is what I use with my .308. Out of a 22" barrel I was getting 2730fps and out of my practice 20" I get 2690fps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...