seanc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Do we need to start another thread for this item 6 vs 8. I did some figgerin on Chris's performance at our OKC match. He lost a smidge over 3% point difference from Major to minor. To get the same overall hit factor as major he would have to shoot the entire match roughly 4 seconds faster than the guy shooting the same points in major. That would be two standing reloads difference in the entire match. We had more than that in every stage except the classifier. USPSA changed their format slightly on the report so it cannot be copied to my Excel so most of this stuff I had to do in my head. It hurts now.. can you link the match results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I heard the same whiney-ass bitching at a match I shot over the weekend. There are still plenty of classifiers to choose from. Outside of the 8 revo issue, I'm actually not sure how that classifier (13-05) could have made into actual circulation. I read it a few times last night, there is no way to set it up with out having scoring zones of multiple targets overlap. As rare as it might be we actually had one shooter on our squad break the perf and get two scoring hits with one shot. Kind of an issue with a Virginia count stage. I'm not complaining out of some kind of personal butthurtness... classifiers are classifiers. I'm just looking at the move as a whole. It seems like there were a lot of unexpected issues with this move to 8 shot minor. Unless they were expected and HQ didn't mind throwing out classifiers/shifting the division towards the competitive advantage of 8 shot minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Do we need to start another thread for this item 6 vs 8. I did some figgerin on Chris's performance at our OKC match. He lost a smidge over 3% point difference from Major to minor. To get the same overall hit factor as major he would have to shoot the entire match roughly 4 seconds faster than the guy shooting the same points in major. That would be two standing reloads difference in the entire match. We had more than that in every stage except the classifier. USPSA changed their format slightly on the report so it cannot be copied to my Excel so most of this stuff I had to do in my head. It hurts now.. can you link the match results? I just got them from USPSA's Web page. Feb 2 2014, Club OK11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 http://www.USPSA.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=10482 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Sean, Here is another from this past weekend.... It was a simple match, 4 little tiny stages, all standing stationary ( MD didnt want movement cause of the snow ) http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=10483&division=Revolver&guntype=Pistol I shot minor, Ken O shot major - IIRC I think he had 3 or 4 extra reloads for the match over me. It's not much data to look through, but something.... Edited February 3, 2014 by alecmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Sean, Here is another from this past weekend.... It was a simple match, 4 little tiny stages, all standing stationary ( MD didnt want movement cause of the snow ) http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=10483&division=Revolver&guntype=Pistol I shot minor, Ken O shot major - IIRC I think he had 3 or 4 extra reloads for the match over me. It's not much data to look through, but something.... 42 seconds for you to 54 seconds for Ken. 242 points for you, 260 points for Ken. 4 extra reloads at 2 seconds per assuming moving right along nice and smooth makes 8 seconds of zero points per second you never had to experience. Add a couple hitches/bobbles/not perfects, 8 becomes 10-12 seconds easily which is pretty much all of the time difference. 12 seconds of hf=zero Speed rules. edit...you sure you want to shoot nat's as 6 major? Edited February 3, 2014 by seanc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) you sure you want to shoot nat's as 6 major? I'll be bringing both guns, I signed up for Nats as Major, and MD/VA Sectional as major, --- I need to get a few local matches under my belt and get a real feel for how it is before deciding. ( also, if considering points as points -- I had 2 mikes on a hard cover, and ken hit 1 no shoot ... so as far as points, I think they would of been pretty even all around if neither of us screwed up, but I was faster on times with 8 shot ) Edited February 3, 2014 by alecmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 you sure you want to shoot nat's as 6 major? I'll be bringing both guns, I signed up for Nats as Major, and MD/VA Sectional as major, --- I need to get a few local matches under my belt and get a real feel for how it is before deciding. ( also, if considering points as points -- I had 2 mikes on a hard cover, and ken hit 1 no shoot ... so as far as points, I think they would of been pretty even all around if neither of us screwed up, but I was faster on times with 8 shot ) I left that out, but yeah, you lost 20 points in penalties to 10 points ken lost. In other words, without the penalties you would have had an even wider margin... Speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) This topic baffles me. Why not just come up with a separate hhf for 8-shooters? I have seen a total of 5 revolver shooters in 2 years of competition (not counting national championships), so it seems a little crazy to stop using 1/4 of our classifiers to accomodate them. Edited February 3, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 This topic baffles me. Why not just come up with a separate hhf for 8-shooters? I have seen a total of 5 revolver shooters in 2 years of competition (not counting national championships), so it seems a little crazy to stop using 1/4 of our classifiers to accomodate them. then you would need to create a new division entirely. I dont see the issue with retiring 2 dozen or so classifiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) then you would need to create a new division entirely. I dont see the issue with retiring 2 dozen or so classifiers We are retiring more classiifiers then there are revolver shooters Edited February 3, 2014 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 And I thought that after 8 shot minor was approved the whining would end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I've bumped into this a few times at local matches, mostly with Hoser and PatJones. It's fun to compare, and how an individual shooter would do is going to depend wildly on the individual. From time to time I best an 8-shot with my 6-shot, even on a field course, and sometimes I eat a bag of dirt with my 6-shot on a classifier that by all rights I should have an advantage. Why? People are different. Each moment is different. I know USPSA has to do something to keep competitive equity, and I lean a bit more toward "adjust the hhfs that screw 6-shooters to 8 shots." Just like someone _can_ shoot Limited with a Glock 26, I find it more appropriate to gauge HHFs against reasonable advances in equipment. For as much reasoning as I try to give it, I keep coming back to the same conclusion of "shoot the course the best you know how and see what the scoresheet says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 then you would need to create a new division entirely. I dont see the issue with retiring 2 dozen or so classifiers We are retiring more classiifiers then there are revolver shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulsashooter45 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule? I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue. I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COF Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 So we have the bottom feeders trolling the revolver forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 So we have the bottom feeders trolling the revolver forum... Or alternatively revolver division has trolled all other divisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Halley Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Imagine that! People who have learned to hit what they shoot at are given 33% more onboard ammo with lighter recoil and the stage times are getting faster. It's no surprise to me that these guys are going to walk away with the 8 shots. The game has changed, hopefully for the better. Maybe the new shooters will pour in as was hoped and the game will have all kinds of new competition at the local and regional levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Someone mentioned earlier that this rule change is going to make 6-shot revolvers obsolete. Do you guys/gals think so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Someone mentioned earlier that this rule change is going to make 6-shot revolvers obsolete. Do you guys/gals think so? I got rid of my 625. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 It will not make them obsolete. I could shoot my 38 super dual comp single stack in Open. It is not obsolete. but not competitively a good idea either. Only at a revolver only match would someone go to the trouble to make an entire match 6 shot friendly and I don't see them very often due to the low number of revo shooters. JMT . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Anyone else getting rid of their M625? Preferably a pre-lock model. I wouldn't mind having another - to shorten barrel to 2" or 3" for a carry gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 This topic baffles me. Why not just come up with a separate hhf for 8-shooters? I have seen a total of 5 revolver shooters in 2 years of competition (not counting national championships), so it seems a little crazy to stop using 1/4 of our classifiers to accomodate them. then you would need to create a new division entirely. I do not concur. You would just need a separate classification HHF for a 20-ish classifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 This topic baffles me. Why not just come up with a separate hhf for 8-shooters? I have seen a total of 5 revolver shooters in 2 years of competition (not counting national championships), so it seems a little crazy to stop using 1/4 of our classifiers to accomodate them.then you would need to create a new division entirely. I do not concur. You would just need a separate classification HHF for a 20-ish classifiers. ...so adjust it so its at the correct level for an 8 shooter. But what happens if its shot with an 6 shot gun ? It'll be absolutely impossible to score well on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Anyone else getting rid of their M625? Preferably a pre-lock model. I wouldn't mind having another - to shorten barrel to 2" or 3" for a carry gun! I'm torn between selling or converting it to .460 Rowland, leaning towards the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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