Is Zen a religion?

[GmanCdp]

friend of mine just sent me this today.. some pretty amazing things going on here..

http://memolition.com/2014/01/30/shaolin-monks-training-18-pictures/

[StraightUp_OG]

WOW!!!! Just WOW!!!!

[GmanCdp]

I know... my muscles are still aching just looking at those photos..lol..my inversion table aint chit

compared to that..

[benos]

Thanks for posting those pics!

[GmanCdp]

Seriously.. Can you feel the power generated in the photos when staring at them???..

did some research and these photos came out of a group of 30 that were taken in SHAOLIN MONKS TRAINING, ZHENGZHOU, CHINA, 2004 ,by Steve McCurry..

[bountyhunter]

The posted definition of religion may be fairly accurate in the traditional sense, but no longer covers all of what passes for or is claimed to be religion. For example, if Scientology is called a "religion", it doesn't fit the definition. A more accurate definition of religion might be an organzized belief system whose objective is to supplant the reasoning of it's followers for the purpose of controlling them. I don't think Zen is a religion in any sense.

Edited February 7, 2014 by bountyhunter

[daves_not_here]

Zen cannot fill the bucket of religion. This is why we try to call it philosophy.

Zen can fill a bucket that has no bottom. It's the bucket that cannot be filled.

Does Zen fulfill a practical purpose like a religion? Does Zen fulfill the impractical?

Zen doesn't matter but is very important at the same time.

It can be intuited but not understood.

[toothguy]

Zen cannot fill the bucket of religion. This is why we try to call it philosophy.

Zen can fill a bucket that has no bottom. It's the bucket that cannot be filled.

Does Zen fulfill a practical purpose like a religion? Does Zen fulfill the impractical?

Zen doesn't matter but is very important at the same time.

It can be intuited but not understood.

+1, Zen is an experience or an observation process that can be a part of any religion but when things turn to crap you don't pray to Zen.

“We see the world kicking God out of education, government, marriages, the home, and even church. Yet when terror strikes, people clasp their hands and bend their knees, calling on God to meet them in their time of distress, asking Him to lift their burden, begging for a different outcome.”

Billy Graham

[enroute]

Zen cannot fill the bucket of religion. This is why we try to call it philosophy.

Zen can fill a bucket that has no bottom. It's the bucket that cannot be filled.

Does Zen fulfill a practical purpose like a religion? Does Zen fulfill the impractical?

Zen doesn't matter but is very important at the same time.

It can be intuited but not understood.

+1, Zen is an experience or an observation process that can be a part of any religion but when things turn to crap you don't pray to Zen.

“We see the world kicking God out of education, government, marriages, the home, and even church. Yet when terror strikes, people clasp their hands and bend their knees, calling on God to meet them in their time of distress, asking Him to lift their burden, begging for a different outcome.”

Billy Graham

Well, no actually.

It's not the..." world kicking God out of"... anywhere-it was put in the first amendment by our founding fathers: freedom of religion. A simple statement extending the idea of Jefferson and Madison's wanting to emphasize their ideals to separate church and state.

[toothguy]

Well, no actually.

It's not the..." world kicking God out of"... anywhere-it was put in the first amendment by our founding fathers: freedom of religion. A simple statement extending the idea of Jefferson and Madison's wanting to emphasize their ideals to separate church and state.

The founding fathers realized that in order to have individual freedom of religion there needs to be a separation of church and state. I think what Billy Graham was saying is that over the years he has noticed that some people have turned there backs on God, but when they are in real trouble they remember where the true power is.

[Bart Solo]

The purpose of Zen is not to help you a faster shooter. The purpose of Zen is to aid you in finding personal enlightenment as Buddha found enlightenment. It is to help us live in the present moment, wisely and earnestly.

Many on this thread view religion through the very tiny window of the West. Zen is not about finding God, but then again neither is Buddhism. It is about finding something else. It is about helping us find our Buddha nature. If you think Buddhism is a religion, then Zen is one of that religion's schools. What we are doing here is using some of Zen's principles to help us perform at a higher level. Specifically, we are learning that if we want to shoot faster we should live in the moment. Is that always wise?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Bart Solo

[enroute]

Well, no actually.

It's not the..." world kicking God out of"... anywhere-it was put in the first amendment by our founding fathers: freedom of religion. A simple statement extending the idea of Jefferson and Madison's wanting to emphasize their ideals to separate church and state.

The founding fathers realized that in order to have individual freedom of religion there needs to be a separation of church and state. I think what Billy Graham was saying is that over the years he has noticed that some people have turned there backs on God, but when they are in real trouble they remember where the true power is.

Sure,

except that I'm not interested in an interpretation/dissertation of Billy Graham's political opinions, about our forefathers trying to escape the religious tyranny in their time. The same/similar religious tyranny that is making a comeback in the U.S. today : strange how the "small government" advocates want to BE IN the Doctors' offices with our wives, etc..

Rather than straying from the OP's religion topic, and into the trap of religion's politics, I'll agree to disagree in a professional manner : Zen is not a religion (for me), but is a division of spiritual meditations, not to be demeaned with a pigeon-holing definitions that satisfies scholars. Much the same way that "being Lutheran" is different for many people, who are no more secure in their religious choice, to have to be wearing somebody else's specific labels. Make sense?

[toothguy]

enroute, if I have offended you I apologize.

[enroute]

Apology accepted Sir.

[CJ56]

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

I didn't get far into this thread when I noticed a very limited deinition of "religion". The definitions here are much better. The poster also left out a key part of the Webster defintion which says:

: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

Religion is more than a belief in the supernatural. It's a belief in any particular view of the nature of the universe and as such zen most certainly qualifies. Zen is about reaching nirvana, which absolutely is a belief in something that is supposedly inherent in the nature of the universe. But even atheists can be considered religious. They believe there is no god so they have their belief in the nature of the universe also. They have an institutionalized belief system complete with an attending attitude.

Zen is a religion. There is no doubt about it. If you have read any of the foundation documents of Zen you would know that instantly. But even the stripped down version of zen as it is perceived in the west is a religion.

Edited April 13, 2014 by CJ56

[Miranda]

there was a time when I thought; "it is quite difficult to fight about Zen."

one can be enlightened in many ways.

As an aid to human perception and thinking, what Zen offers is unparalleled.

From all I have seen, what most people call religion does not encourage any thinking.

About the religious leader quoted earlier.

He equated praying with a return to God....

Since he is in that Biz, he should.

I see praying as looking for alternate answers

when, currently, there are no good answers.

to answer the original question...

From all I can tell, Zen does allow any religion.

Religions find Zen allows heresy.

miranda

[Miranda]

hopfully, we have an answer to the question.

For me the timing of this thread's re-appearance was ...ummm... notable.

from time to time I find I will hit an existential crisis.

the kind of thing demarked by hearing that Inner Voice

"Why are you doing this?"

most are hard to answer like one this past Sunday morning.

but to give you an idea of how they can arrive...

a warm spring day two years ago and I was pushing a '86 Yamaha scooter back to my garage.

thankfully it was only a couple of blocks and a slight uphill...

and the Inner Voice goes off.... "Why are you doing this?"

I mumbled .. good for my character, or such.

The fact is that one owns an old scooter simply to have an excuse to be in the garage.

Doing things like twisting bolts and making parts and gaskets.

The buzz under your butt and the wind in your hair (around the house twice) is the joy.

The slog home is the reverse joy of not being as shiny as I once thought.

Back to my recent Sunday morning,

I spent about an hour between being awake and getting coffee in quiet contemplation.

I suppose I found a doorway because I was feeling settled when

I had my coffee in hand and stopped in here to read.

this Zen thread had revived! what a coincidence! I was just there.

I write this post because I realized that many people

put Sunday mornings to similar uses.

miranda

[caspian38]

My Zen is more powerful then your Zen.

Does it matter if Zen is ,or Isn't a religion?

No one sends around an offering plate asking me to support Zen. If its a religion don't we have to figure out some way to tell if your good or bad at Zen, and an uncomfortable place to send people who don't measure up.

Edited April 20, 2014 by caspian38

[blueorison]

On 1/8/2014 at 4:55 PM, StraightUp_OG said:

(Started because of drift in another thread)

Some may argue but I do not believe that ZEN is a religion.

ZEN is about finding the True Self.

Religion is about finding God.

http://www.sanbo-zen.org/artikel-1_e.html

I think it can and can not be.

 

At the same time.

[jkrispies]

I'm kinda happy that this topic was resurrected (no religious pun intended) maybe as a Throwback Thursday topic?  Anyway...

 

I won't claim to be a Zen expert at all beyond what I've mainly read on this site, but perhaps the OP's question relates to my view on Stoicism.  I've always lived my life with Stoic principles... though I didn't actually know it until a few years ago when I began to study the philosophy of Stoicism explicitly.  Now that I've studied Stoicism, it has allowed me to consciously practice its tenets directly, which has made me a happier and (in my opinion) a more successful person.  Having said all of that, my study and practice of Stoicism has in absolutely no way encouraged me to worship Zeus.  To repeat a phrase I used a few sentences ago, it is "the philosophy of Stoicism" and not the religion of Stoicism.  The Stoics may have developed their philosophy within a strong religious movement, but Stoicism does not represent the religion as a whole but only certain character-based practices within that religion.  As such, the "pure" religious beliefs of Stocism's creators has no influence on me at all.

 

It sounds like Zen may be similar, in that while it was developed within Buddhism, it is in fact more of an internal philosophy or practice that supplements the Buddhist religion, rather than Zen being implicitly religious in and of itself?  As such, when removed from the religion, the philosophy or practice stands on its own?

 

Thoughts?

 

[Miranda]

To explore the op's question one really must visit what a religion may or may not be.

 

my own definition of a relegion is that there will be a mystic (un-provable) entity like a god,
and a ritual practice for the adhearents of the church.

at the risk of being browbeat, one example is; the father, son, and holy ghost as the mystic entity
and mass is a ritual practice for the roman catholic church.

this is a BIIIIG if 

If that makes sense....
your stoicism does not appear to me to be a religion.

... um. by that same reasoning...
Zen would also not be considered a religion.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of similarities between zen and stoicisim.

and yep, it is possible to keep the ritual practice of a religion and remove the mystic part.
... christmas may be a good example.

miranda

[Gunsnjeeps]

Is Zen a religion?  Is NPOA, sight alignment, and trigger control a religion?  Is the aversion to Zen or Yoga deeply rooted in Christian prejudice?  Is meditation prayer?  I never thought my first post on a shooting sight would be about religion or lack of.

 

It seems that a room full of Christians praying to an external god for guidance is acceptable but one man seeking inner strength and calm is considered an aberration.

 

From my earliest days of shooting, long before I read about "One shot and expire." I was already practicing it.  Sights, target, trigger.  Nothing else exists on the range.  Somedays the answer to the day's problems came to me coming off the range, other days the "problems" were distractions from what was important and that was where the clear mind refocused.  Nothing supernatural, nothing mystical, just clearing the mind to focus on a simple task.

 

Is it Zen when an agnostic goes to the range and focuses on NPOA, sight alignment, and trigger control then repeats the process?

 

Not meant to offend. Take what you will.  Zen is Buddhist, meditation is not.

[benos]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:13 AM, Gunsnjeeps said:

From my earliest days of shooting, long before I read about "One shot and expire." I was already practicing it.  Sights, target, trigger.  Nothing else exists on the range

I like it. Nothing else exists, at all.

[hello0o0o0o]

I grew up close with a martial arts teacher who was traditional zen monk.
People in the west have extremely defined concepts of religion and spirituality.

In the east many of ideas of religion are culturally centered and secondary. For many eastern countries especially traditionally the different dogmas of thought were not anything more than different dogmas of thought. Eastern religion and spirituality are significantly more focused on the internal mental awakening and responsibility. This is obviously starkly different to western structural and community based religion.

In short, to apply the world religion to zen is to apply a culturally incompatible definition.
That is why this thread is titled how it is. Yes it is a religion but it’s not like Judaism or Hindu or Christianity.
It’s something that requires it’s own western definition.
It is grounded in spirituality, provides guidelines to live by, and fosters a self responsibility to truth to believe in.
But it doesn’t play the same cultural role that those other “by definition” religions do.

[stasikpasik]

Zen isn`t a religion. The formation of religion is based on the recognition of the existence of an entity transcendent to the forces of nature or man.