StraightUp_OG Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (Started because of drift in another thread) Some may argue but I do not believe that ZEN is a religion. ZEN is about finding the True Self. Religion is about finding God. http://www.sanbo-zen.org/artikel-1_e.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Noun 1. religion - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" Synonyms: faith, religious belief 2. religion - institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" Synonyms: faith That would be Webster's definitions. i have known and trained with many who were so deeply "into" zen and che that they felt that it gave them a "higher power" in their lives. These are, no matter what your definition is, religious. I don't care if the forum continues to offer this discussion section. I was, as mentioned, only making an observation in passing. I am sure that the forum would frown on anybody discussing the relationship of, say, christiananity, to shooting performance, let alone giving that faith a topic section of its own. Thank you for the follow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Based on Webster's definitions that you posted it seems to me they agree that Zen is not a religion. To me religion implies dogma and a search for a "Supreme Being" in all that i have read and discussed on Zen "God" nor faith has ever entered the discussion. The quest for the True Self and the pursuit of enlightenment that I have undertaken has never once required me to look outside of myself only in. Religion is looking outside ones self for the answer. To me Zen is not a religion. However in understanding that Zen, in it's essence, is a very personal thing if you choose to create your own dogma and believe that it is a religion then so be it. If I were to try to change your opinion/belief then I would very much be practicing my own dogma and in that you would be correct. Edited January 10, 2014 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 My feeling (which I cannot "support") - Religions all require belief. Zen is not a religion because it does not involve belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photog Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Zen was adopted by Buddhists early on, but is not Buddhist by nature. The word "zen" only means meditation, ie a Zen Buddhist is a meditative Buddhist. In the West we tend to oversimplify things, so we like to lump all spiritual or meditative ideas as religious. And that is partly right. Studies of people who have taken LSD show that people consider that experience a "spiritual" or "meditative" or "religious" experience. Early on, martial artists of all types were fighters. At the time all persons were religious, just as today. Then we see a shift to the arts meaning more, a path to self discovery. If my church is the range (or mountain, or ocean) and my tool for self discovery is a pistol, or surfboard or mountain bike, am I less or more religious than the person who goes to a building and sings songs and listens to speeches? MU - the question, like all questions on zen, cannot be answered by anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 define zen, religion and is. If you define religion as the search for god,whatever god may be... From all I have seen that Zen is able to do,Zen will find god. .... and one of the first steps Zen will makeis to state; god may not exist.This will mean that using Zen will find nothing. The other religions are not willing to let that happen. To make this a little more clear,religions do not think Zen in a religion. too dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hops Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) ZEN is about finding the True Self. Religion is about finding God. What if you find your true self and realize you are God? Edited January 10, 2014 by hops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 I laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Zen was adopted by Buddhists early on, but is not Buddhist by nature. The word "zen" only means meditation, ie a Zen Buddhist is a meditative Buddhist. In the West we tend to oversimplify things, so we like to lump all spiritual or meditative ideas as religious. And that is partly right. Studies of people who have taken LSD show that people consider that experience a "spiritual" or "meditative" or "religious" experience. Early on, martial artists of all types were fighters. At the time all persons were religious, just as today. Then we see a shift to the arts meaning more, a path to self discovery. If my church is the range (or mountain, or ocean) and my tool for self discovery is a pistol, or surfboard or mountain bike, am I less or more religious than the person who goes to a building and sings songs and listens to speeches? MU - the question, like all questions on zen, cannot be answered by anyone else. This is well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enroute Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 No, for ME Zen is not a religion, but is a spiritual path of mindfulness. Mindful meditation starts my day, so that I may better be in the present, and mindful of gratitude. ...and that is my path today with Zen, tomorrow it may be a different corner in the fold, swearing in the driveway at the car with a dead battery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) "Zen is perhaps the most well-known school of Buddhism in America. Its concepts have been influential on western society since the latter half of the 20th century. There are about 9.6 million Zen Buddhists in Japan today, and numerous Zen groups have developed in North America and Europe within the last century.Both the words "Zen" (Japanese) and "Ch'an" (Chinese) derive from the Sanskrit word Dhyana, meaning "meditation." Zen Buddhism focuses on attaining enlightenment (bodhi) through meditation as Siddharta Gautama did. It teaches that all human beings have the Buddha-nature, or the potential to attain enlightenment, within them, but the Buddha-nature been clouded by ignorance. To overcome this ignorance, Zen rejects the study of scriptures, religious rites, devotional practices, and good works in favor of meditation leading to a sudden breakthrough of insight and awareness of ultimate reality. Training in the Zen path is usually undertaken by a disciple under the guidance of a master." http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/sects/zen.htm In my mind if you believe Buddhism is a religion then you have to say Zen is a religious school. The assumption of Zen is we are capable of enlightenment through meditation. Putting aside the notion of enlightenment (whatever that is) the question is what counts as meditation. A lot of people say meditation amounts to little more than contemplation while sitting on your ass. Others say you can meditate while engaged in some specific physical activities like the sword fighting, hand to hand combat, archery or even pistol shooting. Some say you can meditate while participating in the ordinary activities of life--mowing the lawn or washing the dishes. Some reject meditation all together and say you can obtain enlightenment in an instant of personal discovery. Some would say that Zen, which is by definition focused on obtaining personal enlightenment, is very self indulgent. I am still trying to figure out what any of it means, if anything. Edited January 10, 2014 by Bart Solo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enroute Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (Started because of drift in another thread) Some may argue but I do not believe that ZEN is a religion. ZEN is about finding the True Self. Religion is about finding God. http://www.sanbo-zen.org/artikel-1_e.html I believe Zen is literally what the word itself is: meditation. I agree with you. Looking at the multitudes of websites which come up when searching the word, only one thing is obvious and seemingly factual : there is an obsession to find a pigeon-holing label, for everything. There is such an obtuse clutter of informations overload there, whether it be from scholars or otherwise, that the opposite of meditation is produced. It appears that the root of that clutter is the marketing of products in the sites, a presentation of how much someone knows, while avoiding the quality of time spent being overwhelmed with options, not to study but stay busy with. Aspects of scientific analysis are necessary for knowledge per bullet weight, powder measures, material degradation through Xx # of matches, and where did I put my SlideGlide anyway... However, pigeon-holing Zen as a sub-sect of this/that certain religion must give someone relief, somehow, but detracts from the meditative spirituality of the practice. Bizzare side note though, as OP asked is Xx a religion? I could not find one of those sites loaded with informations, which had a definition of the word "religion"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (Started because of drift in another thread) Some may argue but I do not believe that ZEN is a religion. ZEN is about finding the True Self. Religion is about finding God. http://www.sanbo-zen.org/artikel-1_e.html I believe Zen is literally what the word itself is: meditation. I agree with you. Looking at the multitudes of websites which come up when searching the word, only one thing is obvious and seemingly factual : there is an obsession to find a pigeon-holing label, for everything. There is such an obtuse clutter of informations overload there, whether it be from scholars or otherwise, that the opposite of meditation is produced. It appears that the root of that clutter is the marketing of products in the sites, a presentation of how much someone knows, while avoiding the quality of time spent being overwhelmed with options, not to study but stay busy with. Aspects of scientific analysis are necessary for knowledge per bullet weight, powder measures, material degradation through Xx # of matches, and where did I put my SlideGlide anyway... However, pigeon-holing Zen as a sub-sect of this/that certain religion must give someone relief, somehow, but detracts from the meditative spirituality of the practice. Bizzare side note though, as OP asked is Xx a religion? I could not find one of those sites loaded with informations, which had a definition of the word "religion"? You might try "Webster's". It's a dictionary... Seems the common theme is (or are) "spiritual, seeking the way or path, finding, etc. I can see that you tend to be very faithful in your quests, and are very devout in your beliefs. You are quick to allow us to witness the merits of how your belief has changed you, improved you. Your testimonies of the effectiveness of Zen are admirable. Yet, zen cannot be seen, or witnessed in any way, save the seeing of the person who seeks it. Much like the religions of the day. Calling it "spiritual meditation" does sound righteous... I wonder if whom one seeks is what quantifies religion? Or, does the act of seeking define two of the same as the same? And, here's another question: If one reaches the ultimate state of zen (whatever that is), does one then still need to compete at any level, or, has one found the meaning of it all without the need to compete? Maybe I'm closer than I realized... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enroute Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Whoops, sorry to mislead, the whole Zen thing has been a real PITA as most of the N.A. world spins in a different direction, while I deprogram myself towards something more akin to what "Youngeyes" posted above. The spiritual meditation simply works for me, as a Zen "definition", as it is developing into a walking mindfulness I carry through out my day-IF I let it. I believe you are closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USCSBarney Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Bart, that is the best explanation I have read since grad school. Well done. If you ask a "Zen" priest, I think he would say something to the effect "If you want it to be, it is, if not, it isn't. It is merely a way." I tend to say yes it is. Any belief system that can draw to devotion level of setting under a waterfall in the middle of winter (real winter), ,meets the definition of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enroute Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You might try "Webster's". It's a dictionary... Seems the common theme is (or are) "spiritual, seeking the way or path, finding, etc. I can see that you tend to be very faithful in your quests, and are very devout in your beliefs. You are quick to allow us to witness the merits of how your belief has changed you, improved you. Your testimonies of the effectiveness of Zen are admirable. Yet, zen cannot be seen, or witnessed in any way, save the seeing of the person who seeks it. Much like the religions of the day. Calling it "spiritual meditation" does sound righteous... I wonder if whom one seeks is what quantifies religion? Or, does the act of seeking define two of the same as the same? And, here's another question: If one reaches the ultimate state of zen (whatever that is), does one then still need to compete at any level, or, has one found the meaning of it all without the need to compete? Maybe I'm closer than I realized... I was not referring to Websters, but to all the "speciality" sites I found when doing a search about zen; they are fast to define and pigeon-hole the western world's knowledge of zen history, but do not define the word religion itself. I do not think there is an actual ultimate state of zen that is an achievement of some sort or another, wherein your development stops, and your sect makes you a deacon. Nor is there a need to compete for any sort of righteous recognition, being the most devout, or making the best testimony. In fact I think that is why I enjoy others interested in zen; a lack of ego, and the whole bag of luggage that comes with the ego. Teaching each other is done with respect and honor, and in the spirit of sharing, rather than the negative aspects of ego. Share the vision and watch others achieve-this is counter to the culture of today which seems to be holding the Survivor mentality of slash and burn everyone as opponents. In reading the above noted sites they say that zen is not a religion. So, I am curious how so many have read and quoted the same material, but find zen to be a religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I am rather enjoying this discussion! Thank you all. Perhaps we might agree as to what we believe "religion" to be? we seem to be coming at the discussion from slightly different perspectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Perhaps it would be a good idea to define what we could agree "religion" to mean? We seem to be coming at this discussion from different perspectives. What is religion? I tend to see it as "that which you worship." or, maybe, "that to which one offers their time, devotion, money, dedication, etc. to" I know people who seem to worship stuff, their jobs, their free time, yardwork, families, friends, even NASCAR! Not that any or all are bad, but, (IMHO) the pursuing of such can be literal worship. I also know people who worship the party and bow every weekend morning to the "porcelain god". Maybe my definition is faulty? Thanks for the discussion! Enjoying it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Some religions (Buddhism) and eastern practices (yoga, martial arts) lean heavily on Zen based concepts, but Zen in itself, which is primarily physical actions and tricks that produces alpha waves in the brain, is not a religion. That's about on the same level as asking if praying is a religion. Well... no. Do some religions utilize it? Sure. When I was running track, I could get a self-induced runner's high. I was quite addicted to the feeling, felt on top of the world, no pain, total natural euphoria. I knew the physical tricks to make my body do that, and I felt better and more alert when that happened. Does that make it a religion? No. Same with Zen techniques. Edited January 31, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enroute Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I've got alpha waves in my skull? Coooollll....... Lemme meditate on that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Good hits are called alphas. Meditate on that too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Some religions (Buddhism) and eastern practices (yoga, martial arts) lean heavily on Zen based concepts, but Zen in itself, which is primarily physical actions and tricks that produces alpha waves in the brain, is not a religion. That's about on the same level as asking if praying is a religion. Well... no. Do some religions utilize it? Sure. When I was running track, I could get a self-induced runner's high. I was quite addicted to the feeling, felt on top of the world, no pain, total natural euphoria. I knew the physical tricks to make my body do that, and I felt better and more alert when that happened. Does that make it a religion? No. Same with Zen techniques. You can get alpha waves without meditation. They can be medically induced. Peyote anyone? What about LSD? I seroiusly doubt any serious practitioner would define Zen as being a series of actions and tricks that produce alpha waves in the brain. That said, there is a lot of science that says there is little difference between medically induced highs, runner highs and the kind of highs people obtain from serious prayer or meditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enroute Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Good hits are called alphas. Meditate on that too! Yes, I believe this is cross training in that GMs can also qualify to be X-Ray techs.? (All those alphas you know.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 The "ruuner's high" is endorphin. It's a chemical in the brain. It comes with training and conditioning. When trainers train race horses in a certain manner, it triggers endorphins in the brain for the feeling of wellness, contentment, etc. It is a chemical condition. Not really zen. The effect is common to most athletes at some point in their training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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