Shooting extra classifiers

[motosapiens]

It seems most of the relevant points have been made, so for the sake of discussion, I'll play devil's advocate

If a "do-over" for classification can be bought for a few bucks, why not offer "do-overs" for every stage (for match results) for the same few bucks? Wouldn't it better reflect the shooter's true ability if they got a practice run to sort out strategy and equipment issues/malfs? Or, would the match take 14 hours and the person with the most money for fees eventually win?

Mark

First, match results are important, whereas classification results are not really all that important, at least in my opinion. You don't get any prizes or rewards or money or a motorhome or guaranteed entry into a popular match or extra points when scoring stages for your classifier results. The purpose of classification imho is two-fold, to help you gauge your improvement, and to give others who don't know you a rough guesstimate of your abilities. Re-shooting a classifier in no way interferes with those purposes.

Second, the rules specifically allow for classifier re-shoots, whereas they don't allow for stage re-shoots except in very specific situations, for reasons of competitive fairness.

[gng4life]

Something I hadn't thought about until just now is how would you handle the situation where a shooter requests a reshoot and shoots worse than they shot the first time. Do you give them the option of submitting the better of the two runs or do you make them submit the second run even if it's worse that the first one?

The book states that the best score is submitted. It's about showing your ability, not about taking a second crack at it so the best HF of the two should be submitted.

[ZackJones]

The book states that the best score is submitted. It's about showing your ability, not about taking a second crack at it so the best HF of the two should be submitted.

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Chris iliff]

So you are saying "redial" a run?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Again I'm gonna add that I'm fine with a reshoot. If someone wants go after go, then mock mercilessly.

By definition, the classifier is not just any other stage. I think that is why the rules are how they are. You can treat it like any other stage and I'd say that is sage advice. But that particular stage determines something a little more than the rest of them at a match. I think our "rule writers" understood that, hence the different treatment. It is what it is.

[BillD]

I wonder if we classed people the same across all divisions, if this discussion would go away.

How many people do you know that are M in one division but shoot A, in another division, to get that plaque?

I think if you made whatever class you made, with a semi-auto pistol (I'm willing to give you revolver), that is your class across all divisions.

Stops a whole bunch of sandbagging.

[NicVerAZ]

I wonder if we classed people the same across all divisions, if this discussion would go away.

How many people do you know that are M in one division but shoot A, in another division, to get that plaque?

I think if you made whatever class you made, with a semi-auto pistol (I'm willing to give you revolver), that is your class across all divisions.

Stops a whole bunch of sandbagging.

I do not see how that would be a good idea, since you need to be seriously accurate and fast at reloading without a magwell to get M in production.

The progression curve is a lot different between divisions.

[motosapiens]

I wonder if we classed people the same across all divisions, if this discussion would go away.

How many people do you know that are M in one division but shoot A, in another division, to get that plaque?

I think if you made whatever class you made, with a semi-auto pistol (I'm willing to give you revolver), that is your class across all divisions.

Stops a whole bunch of sandbagging.

or just stop giving plaques for class finishes. Maybe give hugs instead.

Edited December 11, 2013 by motosapiens

[steel1212]

Coming from someone who is the same class across the board, mostly, I don't think the repeat classifiers has anything to do with sandbagging. It's the reverse. I guess I take offense to those that do it because I busted my butt to get what I earned for somebody to just buy the same. Ain't nothing you can do about sandbagging.

Edited December 11, 2013 by steel1212

[BillD]

I wonder if we classed people the same across all divisions, if this discussion would go away.

How many people do you know that are M in one division but shoot A, in another division, to get that plaque?

I think if you made whatever class you made, with a semi-auto pistol (I'm willing to give you revolver), that is your class across all divisions.

Stops a whole bunch of sandbagging.

or just stop giving plaques for class finishes. Maybe give hugs instead.

Depends on whose giving the hugs....and how she might be dressed.

[Chris iliff]

Coming from someone who is the same class across the board, mostly, I don't think the repeat classifiers has anything to do with sandbagging. It's the reverse. I guess I take offense to those that do it because I busted my butt to get what I earned for somebody to just buy the same. Ain't nothing you can do about sandbagging.

So everyone who ever reshot a classifier is a Grandbagger? I think those types are few and far between. Very few.

I wonder if we classed people the same across all divisions, if this discussion would go away.

How many people do you know that are M in one division but shoot A, in another division, to get that plaque?

I think if you made whatever class you made, with a semi-auto pistol (I'm willing to give you revolver), that is your class across all divisions.

Stops a whole bunch of sandbagging.

or just stop giving plaques for class finishes. Maybe give hugs instead.

Depends on whose giving the hugs....and how she might be dressed.

Bill, you know damn well I can't shoot iron sighted guns! I think your idea is just plain mean spirited! No one, and I mean no one, has to worry about me dropping down a class and winning a division. That's funny! Open all the way!

Now, I have been spanked by those M and GM limited guys when they drop a class and shoot Open! Soooooo, I guess there is some merit to your thinking.

[steel1212]

Coming from someone who is the same class across the board, mostly, I don't think the repeat classifiers has anything to do with sandbagging. It's the reverse. I guess I take offense to those that do it because I busted my butt to get what I earned for somebody to just buy the same. Ain't nothing you can do about sandbagging.

So everyone who ever reshot a classifier is a Grandbagger? I think those types are few and far between. Very few.

Actually to a degree yes I do. You obviously didn't get what you wanted on the first run so you paid to get what you wanted on another attempt. Some people take advantage of it more than others and to a greater degree. My reasoning is, stand and deliver or don't.

[Chris iliff]

Isn't a Grandbagger someone who can't perform in their class? That's the definition I've always used. It is a shooter that reshoots and or practices classifiers at the expense of all other skills and ends up being classed way above their actual level. Do you have a different definition?

At some point we can all be called one thing or the other, kinda like the end of " The Breakfast Club".

Heck, every single shooter at production nationals must have been Grandbagging according to your definition. None of them shot GM against Eric! Those Grandbagging bastards, lol.

Therein lies the rub, depending on who is in the show, we can all be one or the other.

[steel1212]

Isn't a Grandbagger someone who can't perform in their class? That's the definition I've always used. It is a shooter that reshoots and or practices classifiers at the expense of all other skills and ends up being classed way above their actual level. Do you have a different definition?

At some point we can all be called one thing or the other, kinda like the end of " The Breakfast Club".

Heck, every single shooter at production nationals must have been Grandbagging according to your definition. None of them shot GM against Eric! Those Grandbagging bastards, lol.

Therein lies the rub, depending on who is in the show, we can all be one or the other.

Let me check websters dictionary....yep not there. DIdn't you just repeat what I've been saying all along? I'm pretty sure what I said was somebody that reshoots classifiers.

Did every single person at production nationals reshoot classifiers to get their GM card, I seriously doubt it. Its pretty much the way every nationals go in that very few shoot with in their class range.

Edited December 12, 2013 by steel1212

[Chris iliff]

Isn't a Grandbagger someone who can't perform in their class? That's the definition I've always used. It is a shooter that reshoots and or practices classifiers at the expense of all other skills and ends up being classed way above their actual level. Do you have a different definition?

At some point we can all be called one thing or the other, kinda like the end of " The Breakfast Club".

Heck, every single shooter at production nationals must have been Grandbagging according to your definition. None of them shot GM against Eric! Those Grandbagging bastards, lol.

Therein lies the rub, depending on who is in the show, we can all be one or the other.

Let me check websters dictionary....yep not there. DIdn't you just repeat what I've been saying all along? I'm pretty sure what I said was somebody that reshoots classifiers.

Did every single person at production nationals reshoot classifiers to get their GM card, I seriously doubt it. Its pretty much the way every nationals go in that very few shoot with in their class range.

You are right, that's what you said.

I was just trying to point out that not everyone that reshoots a classifier is a Grandbagger. Nor is everyone that doesn't finish in their class at major matches. I'd be willing to bet that there is more than one legit GM that has reshot a classifier, I doubt they are grandbaggers because of it. I also doubt that they didn't work as hard as other GM's. I know what I've done in 10 years,.... all the practice, all the money, classes, sweat, DRYFIRE just to get to Master. Not to mention the couple times I've RESHOT a classifier along the way. So, I guess I kinda took umbrage to what I inferred from your posts. That somehow what I've accomplished was un earned or less legit than some other Master. Sorry if I offended, not my intention.

[lugnut]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Most of the clubs around here don't let people reshoot classifiers at matches- it would just slow down everything. Some clubs do on occasion. I've never been able to.

However we do have 1-2 classifier "matches" throughout the year. Since these matches go quick they often let people shoot a different gun or the same gun if you want. I've done this- hell it's more shooting right?

Let people do what they want, we're only as good as our last match anyway. Matches are where it all comes together and what matters. Most of the time, the Ms come out at the top, followed by As, etc. It's not always that way but it seems to be pretty consistent- regardless of how people got there.

I do believe the classifiers are a good test and provide good goals along your journey.

[steel1212]

I'm not offended. My opinion won't change what USPSA allows. Nore will my opinion change that I don't think it should be allowed.

[redial]

So you are saying "redial" a run?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Again I'm gonna add that I'm fine with a reshoot. If someone wants go after go, then mock mercilessly.

By definition, the classifier is not just any other stage. I think that is why the rules are how they are. You can treat it like any other stage and I'd say that is sage advice. But that particular stage determines something a little more than the rest of them at a match. I think our "rule writers" understood that, hence the different treatment. It is what it is.

Great pun (I really didn't see it coming!) but yes, that's exactly what saying. My stance is that a classifier actually is like any other stage, just a standard course that's supposably uniform in layout at any club, to make it an apples-to-apples comparison no matter where it's shot. A shooter can compare his score on a uniform course with a shooter who shot it elsewhere in a meaningful manner if it is truly uniform. Other'n that, it's just another stage, as far as I'm concerned.

With that as my foundation, I offered that it be run the same as the other stages OR that all the other stages be run like classifiers. If it sounds odd one way, it's probably odd both ways.

Personally, I don't reshoot classifiers. If I danced on my yonson the first time, it's because I didn't prepare/practice/plan etc sufficiently and my score reflects that. That's the nature of the game and I understood that going in. Of course, if I shot well enough to scare Chuck Norris, I'll loudly proclaim myself to be the reincarnation of Elvis and homage to me may be paid in beer afterward.

We do this for fun, right?

Mark

[lugnut]

Let me check websters dictionary....yep not there. DIdn't you just repeat what I've been saying all along? I'm pretty sure what I said was somebody that reshoots classifiers.

Did every single person at production nationals reshoot classifiers to get their GM card, I seriously doubt it. Its pretty much the way every nationals go in that very few shoot with in their class range.

Yeah... but the classifier system tops out at 100%. There are some top GMs that would likely shoot classifiers well over 100%- making them super GMs so to speak... lol. So it seems reasonable, even obvious that the gaps between the GMs would be wide.... and that an A would only get 60% of the winner. Make sense?

[steel1212]

Yeah I understand I have to shoot against them lol

Edited December 12, 2013 by steel1212

[lugnut]

Yeah I understand I have to shoot against them lol

LOL. You do good!

[Chris iliff]

Yeah I understand I have to shoot against them lol

LOL. You do good!

No laughing, Corey does do good and reflects what "true" means in true GM.

I don't agree with him on this one tiny little detail, but he is a boss rockin the SS.

[steel1212]

Thanks guys. We don't have to agree. I'm a big boy it's ok to agree to disagree :-)

[motosapiens]

Coming from someone who is the same class across the board, mostly, I don't think the repeat classifiers has anything to do with sandbagging. It's the reverse. I guess I take offense to those that do it because I busted my butt to get what I earned for somebody to just buy the same. Ain't nothing you can do about sandbagging.

So everyone who ever reshot a classifier is a Grandbagger? I think those types are few and far between. Very few.

Actually to a degree yes I do. You obviously didn't get what you wanted on the first run so you paid to get what you wanted on another attempt. Some people take advantage of it more than others and to a greater degree. My reasoning is, stand and deliver or don't.

Why stop there? I'd say everyone who goes to a special classifier after they are initially classified must also be a grandbagger, since they're trying to shoot more classifiers than required by normal matches. (not sure why it's bad to be a grandbagger, or why anyone would care, btw).

Heck, why does USPSA throw out scores that are 5% below your current class? That encourages a 'hero or zero' approach (particularly at classifier special matches) that is just grandbagging by a different name. If you actually had to count that trainwreck classifier you were trying to burn down, there would be a lot fewer grandbaggers.

I actually think more people should grandbag. Since I mostly just look at the overall results, it's good for my self-esteem to occasionally beat someone who is a couple classes above me. Some of those people probably are older and don't shoot as much as when they got their higher classification, some probably just had a gun malfunction or a really bad day, but I'm sure there must be a couple genuine 'grandbaggers' in there, and beating one or two helps make up for the hugs I never got when I was a child.

[Supermoto]

Heck, why does USPSA throw out scores that are 5% below your current class? That encourages a 'hero or zero' approach (particularly at classifier special matches) that is just grandbagging by a different name. If you actually had to count that trainwreck classifier you were trying to burn down, there would be a lot fewer grandbaggers.

This is the part of the classification system that causes reshoots. People will continually try hero, knowing zero has no consequences.

If USPSA took the best 6 of the last 8 without any dropped for being too low my % would go down to exactly where I finish at majors. I suspect most shooters class would drop to where they would finish % wise against the best.

This change would require consistency as a shooter and punish hero or zero... no idea why USPSA won't change it

[motosapiens]

Heck, why does USPSA throw out scores that are 5% below your current class? That encourages a 'hero or zero' approach (particularly at classifier special matches) that is just grandbagging by a different name. If you actually had to count that trainwreck classifier you were trying to burn down, there would be a lot fewer grandbaggers.

This is the part of the classification system that causes reshoots. People will continually try hero, knowing zero has no consequences.

If USPSA took the best 6 of the last 8 without any dropped for being too low my % would go down to exactly where I finish at majors. I suspect most shooters class would drop to where they would finish % wise against the best.

This change would require consistency as a shooter and punish hero or zero... no idea why USPSA won't change it

I guess i'm not a grandbagger then, because my percentage has been pretty close to what I have shot at majors, but I *try* to approach classifiers like a regular stage.