Lee FCD and cast bullet disclaimers…

[DougCarden]

I don't disagree at all......Truly.

DougC

[grouptherapy]

The FCD is nothing but a crutch to correct something else that the loader is doing wrong in the process of reloading. Imagine how many billions of rounds that were loaded before this atrocity came along that worked perfectly. Not only does it reduce the size of an already loaded bullet that can cause leading of a barrel but it also increases the chance of bullet set back by reducing case tension which is dangerous to the shooter or others standing close by.

The FCD will pass most jacketed bullets without effecting them but if you can feel any resistance of the bullet when it passes the carbide sizing ring you are not doing yourself any favors. It would be much better to figure out what you are doing wrong that keeps your ammo from chambering than trying to fix the problem after the round has been loaded. This is the reason for the warnings from bullet manufactures.

If reloading glocked brass is a crutch then I guess I'm a cripple. What do ya think I'm doing wrong besides that? My brass is range brass that varies in length from .003-.010. These are only target loads with my expected occasional flyer that I don't mind. Ya sound like a hater that says there is only one right way...your way. Best wishes.

PS IF the FCD is so god awfully terrible why does it produce consistent start pressures (100 plus rounds straight test) all within 30 FPS with a lee auto disc drop. Guess the auto disc is a pos too huh.

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Edited April 29, 2014 by grouptherapy

[bowenbuilt]

No hater here, I have an FCD and we use it all the time. It is mounted on a cheap Lee press. My Wife is in charge of the range brass dept. and she runs all of our .40 and .45 brass through an FCD as a bulge buster so it will chamber in our LWD, KKM and Bar-Sto barrels. I don't have any problem with a Lee powder measure at all. People keep asking why the bullet companies warn against using certain products, That is the reason for my post. Making a round peg fit in a round hole is not rocket science, I am sure you can figure it out. I have beat all the hair off this horse so moving right along....

[toddje]

I don't think it's a matter of hate or love. It just is. A Lee FCD has the capability, propensity and in fact the intent to squish/swage your soft lead (straight lead, plastic coated or plated) bullet in ways that may have undesirable side-effects (leading, accuracy issues, etc). I personally like the FCD with full jacketed bullets, but that's just me.

Back to the "glocked" brass issue, there are several ways to fix it, one is a push-thru die system that Lee sells that makes use of a Factory Crimp Die. If you do this with an empty case (vs. a fully loaded round) you have no issues with your lead rounds. But that Lee die system also works for fully loaded rounds. And then you're back to shoving a soft lead bullet thru the FCD with all the side-effects that casues. The Lee bulge buster system works pretty well but these days truly "glocked" brass is less of a problem (in no small part because Glock fixed the very loose chamber problem years ago). The.40 Glock chamber is still big-ish and causes a smaller amount of "glocking" than it used to.... much smaller, and usually just a well adjusted normal sizing die is all I need to get "glocked" brass to run in my M&P and Sig.

Edited April 29, 2014 by toddje

[grouptherapy]

My accuracy and chronied fps consistency in 9,40,and 45 all being cast lead or plated tell me I am doing fine with thousands of rounds and no leading thru the FCD and not to mention my bulge buster. I don't think it's just luck. Good day and best wishes. Over and out.

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Edited April 29, 2014 by grouptherapy

[Ewilson224]

Has anyone pulled a bullet that has been run through the Lee Bulge/FCD combo and then measured the diameter? I would be curious of the change if any in diameter that you guys are talking about due to the Bulge Die/FCD. Also, I run coated bullets with the hi-tech coating similar or the same to what Bayou Bullets uses, but from a person here locally where I am. I am curious if any that the coating would have on the diameter being affected from the Bulge Die/FCD vs. a standard lubed lead bullet.

I have the Lee Bulge Die/FCD on the way that I will be running on my old Lee turret press that I have taken the index out of and will use it as a single stage just for my brass. I load all of my ammo on a Dillon 650, but lately have ran into a lot of my brass that has a slight bulge in it. I check all of my ammo in my barrel that I am taking to matches instead of a case gauge. I recommend if you aren't doing it this way, that you start. You aren't shooting ammo out your case gauge, but you are your barrel. If it drops into your barrel, you should be good to go.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Ewilson224

[bowenbuilt]

I have a really hard time understanding the argument. The manufacturer of the bullets tell you not to use it. We have explained why not to use it here on many occasions. Why is it so hard to understand that sizing an already seated bullet is a very bad idea? Depending on the tolerance of the FCD you buy it is possible to size, for example, a .452 lead bullet back to .451, ordinarily firing a lead bullet with a .451 diameter would not be a problem other than leading your barrel but once the bullet has been seated into the case and THEN you re-size it you are asking for trouble. If you can feel any resistance of the bullet as it travels through the sizing ring you are reducing the diameter of the bullet in the case which is reducing the case tension on the bullet. Most jacket bullets pass through the die untouched but plated, coated and plain cast are subject to being reduced and this can be a dangerous situation when a well used case looses what little case tension it had causing setback. I use the FCD as a bulge buster and it does a very good job of bringing the web and case head back to its original diameter but you could not pay me enough to run my already loaded ammunition through one. There is no way you can form a reasonable argument for the FCD. The bullet manufacturers are not printing this warning because they have extra lines of script that need filling.

[BillD]

I have a real hard time with understanding why anyone cares how I reload given excellent results

[Ewilson224]

I plan on using this die to resize some brass, not particularly loaded ammo which I will most likely try with some practice ammo that didn't pass the barrel drop test. But what I was curious as I had mentioned in the first post, was has anyone sized a loaded round with the Lee Bulge/FCD and pulled it and then measured it to see what is actually going on with the bullet to see the affect from the Lee Bulge/FCD on a loaded round. That should be a tell tale sign of what is actually going on if anything on a loaded round. I will give it a shot when I receive mine this week.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Ewilson224

[bowenbuilt]

If you want to know how many hundreds of people who have had this problem call BBI or Precision and ask the question. Don't take someone's word for this that you don't know or don't really know what their qualifications are. People used to use leeches when they became ill and the earth at one time was flat. I hate to see anyone on here take this personal. We are supposed to be trying to exchange useful information on this site and that is all I am trying to do.

[BillD]

I've loaded and fired some 80K using lead and coated lead using the FCD with no issues from bullet setback.

I'd say that was a pretty conclusive test. I'll continue to use it.

[cslafrain]

As several of the emails above as stated we don't recommend the use of a Lee FCD. This does not mend they can't be used and with good success. The reason that we do not recommend them is that often times they are used excessively as a crutch for not having the rest of the dies (sizing, bell, and crimp) set up properly. The FCD can work when still being used to establish the light crimp needed for coated bullets. Crimp is often overused to try to avoid setback issues - however the result of setback or case tension is a function of proper sizing while crimp is a function of feeding. Many reloaders have and continue to use the FCD due to their preference and that is totally acceptable. The FCD per the Lee website is actually designed to be used with cannelure bullets for pressing the brass into the cannelure.

[Ewilson224]

Guys/gals,

Here is what I have came up with in regards to running loaded rounds through the Lee Bulge Kit in 40 caliber. I had some ammo that I had loaded that had a bulge and would not drop in my barrel. So I ran them though the Lee Bulge Kit. After that, I pulled the bullet, measured it. My findings were, 1. after running a loaded round through Bulge Die, it would then drop in barrel, 2. after pulling bullet, I measured the bullet diameter, there was NO CHANGE in bullet diameter and NO ILL EFFECT on coating on bullet. (I use lead ammo that is coated with the hi-tech coating). So I personally don't see an issue that some claim about it distorting bullets, making them inaccurate, dangerous, etc. etc. It did not do anything to the crimp. I would have no issue running loaded ammo through this that NEEDED it and use it for practice ammo. Would this be my first choice for local or major match ammo, probably not, but for practice ammo, absolutely I would not hesitate to run this ammo for that.

I can not speak for your standard lead/lubed bullets as I did not try this. But I did try it on the coated bullet with zero issue and all bullets remained in spec.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Ewilson224

[Bob DuBois]

Fan of Lee dies really like Lee's sizing die and seating die though I have modified the seating die with a flat insert that pushes on the nose of the bullet. FCD if used is backed off to only give a light crimp. Ammo is accurate and consistent. More times than not a Dillon taper crimp is in the last station.

Sizing die holds the bullet, crimp lets the round chamber easier. Need to size brass a little tighter try a Lee carbide sizing die or in some cases Lee's U die. Works Great in 40 S@W.

[BillR1]

I have three sets of Lee dies for my 550. (38 Special, 9mm, 45ACP) All sets use the FCD and I load a lot of coated and uncoated lead for my revolvers. I've never had an issue with setback or excess leading, and the rounds are way more accurate than I am.

[Fuelie777]

My take is very simple, if it works for you then great. Go with it. But I have had direct experience with the FCD, leading and non leading. I actually talked with Lee Precision about it, and the FCD is set up for Factory ammunition, basically FMJ or FMJ Hollow points. They are sized at .451. Now if your barrel is tight, resizing the lead bullet will not have much of an effect. But I strictly shoot lead and have had many problems. Lee indicated that if you really want to use the Lee FCD, then get the one sized for 45 LC and just insert your taper crimp items in place of the roll crimp item.

I have also talked directly with the bullet manufacturers and what they say is true. They do not recommend it for their lead bullets, coated or uncoated. But, again, if it works for you then great. But it has not worked for me at all.

Now, with FMJ bullets, I do use the FCD. No problem. Works great.

Cheers everyone.

[grouptherapy]

My take is very simple, if it works for you then great. Go with it. But I have had direct experience with the FCD, leading and non leading. I actually talked with Lee Precision about it, and the FCD is set up for Factory ammunition, basically FMJ or FMJ Hollow points. They are sized at .451. Now if your barrel is tight, resizing the lead bullet will not have much of an effect. But I strictly shoot lead and have had many problems. Lee indicated that if you really want to use the Lee FCD, then get the one sized for 45 LC and just insert your taper crimp items in place of the roll crimp item.

I have also talked directly with the bullet manufacturers and what they say is true. They do not recommend it for their lead bullets, coated or uncoated. But, again, if it works for you then great. But it has not worked for me at all.

Now, with FMJ bullets, I do use the FCD. No problem. Works great.

Cheers everyone.

Interesting. Let me be sure this is what ya mean.

Ya say Lee told you to get a 45 LC FCD and put the ACP FCD guts in it?

Best Wishes

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Edited June 1, 2014 by grouptherapy

[bowenbuilt]

Yes that is correct, the .45 LC carbide ring will pass a .454 diameter bullet and will not resize the .451/.452 ACP bullets. They will pass through the sizing ring without being touched. For the people who are successfully using the FCD with lead you have to keep in mind that all it takes is a sizing ring .02 undersize or a piece of brass a little thicker than normal to cause the problems. I have no idea what kind of quality control Lee has now but in the past this was not uncommon. It is even more of a problem in .40 because of the pressures this round works at. It is good to have these discussions so at least a new reloader or someone who is unsuspecting can check these things to find out if they are going to have a problem when using one of these. From the posts in this thread there are those who can and those who cannot so you pays your money and you takes your chance but most importantly be aware.

[grouptherapy]

In this context why buy an extra die. Just knock the acp ring out out of the bottom and get on with it.

Best wishes.

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[bowenbuilt]

The only reason I could think of is it would knock Lee out of selling you another die.

[rhyrlik]

I noticed a couple of statements I want to address:

One was that FCD helps with problem rounds that fail to chamber reliably. If your gun is that unreliable where a properly assembled round fails to chamber but a FCD massaged round chambers reliably, then you should first look at the gun. But the more likely culprit is you and your reloading technique. If you are loading 255gr LSWC bullets in your 45 ACP, you will bulge your case because the bullet is too long for use in an auto. The solution is not the FCD. The solution is to use another, more appropriate, combo. If you are bulging your cases with appropriate components, then you are seating the bullets crooked. Contrary to popular belief, the seater die will not straighten out a crooked misaligned bullet. It will seat the bullet crooked and cause a bulge in the case wall. Start your bullets straight. I know you want to load 1000 rounds per hour, but that yields crappy ammo.

Another was that the owner of the FCD never had any problems with lead bullets. OK, that's great. Maybe he uses thin brass and his FCD is on the loose end of tolerances. However, many people use thick brass, many times mixed headstamps, and their FCD is on the tight end. Thick brass plus tight FCD equals bullet diameter reduction and bullet setback during feeding, and leading due to a now undersized bullet.

A correctly sized case will accept a correctly sized bullet and that assembly does not to be resized in a FCD in order to function reliably.

[ToddKS]

As someone who has been using the Lee FCD for years this topic interested me. There is a lot of speculation here, but no data. I decided that I would investigate what actually happens to bullets run through the FCD. I also wanted to determine what affect this would have on potential setback so I came up with a reasonable way to check for that as well.

The test:

I manufactured a series of dummy rounds. Some without using the FCD, some having gone through the FCD but with no crimp, and others that went through the FCD with it adjusted for crimp as per the Lee instructions (1/2 turn after bullet contact).

Once the dummy rounds were assembled I measured the OAL of each round. I then proceeded to run the round through my pistol 5 times. After the 5th chambering I measured the OAL again to determine how much set back had occurred. Once the OAL had been measured and the setback calculated I pulled the bullet and measured it to see if there was a reduction in diameter. All bullets were 230gr Berry's copper plated bullets which measured .452 diameter. Each bullet was measured before the test. The ID on my particular Lee FCD is .470.

Test 1: Winchester Brass .010 case wall thickness.

1. No FCD: -.007 setback. No change to bullet diameter.

2. FCD, No crimp: -.002 set back. Bullet diameter reduced .001 (.451)

3. FCD, w/crimp: -.000 set back. Bullet diameter reduced .001 (.451). Light visible mark from crimp.

Test 2: R&P Brass .010 case wall thickness

1. No FCD: +.002 set back (round grew). No change to bullet diameter

2. FCD, No crimp: +.002 set back (round grew). Bullet diameter reduced .001

3. FCD, w/crimp: -.001 set back. Bullet diameter reduced .001. Light visible mark from crimp.

Test 3: WCC +P .012 case wall thickness

1. No FCD: No set back. No change to bullet diameter.

2. FCD, No crimp: No set back. Bullet diameter reduced .001.

3. FCD, w/crimp: No set back. Bullet diameter reduced .001. Light visible mark from crimp.

As I control I pulled the bullets from some factory rounds I had. All had bullet diameters of .450 with crimp marks far more visible than any I created in my test.

I cannot produce a scenario where using the FCD set up per the instructions created an increase in set back potential. It did reduce my .452 diameter bullets to .451 but that is consistent with the .001 reduction I found on factory ammo. While I could not find a scenario where the FCD presented an increased risk of set back I did have a scenario with the Winchester brass where the FCD eliminated setback that would have occurred with out it.

Where I have encountered set back issues in the past has been with certain brands of brass and it is not always directly related to case wall thickness. As you can see above the R&P and Winchester have the same case wall thickness but for whatever reason the Winchester is more susceptible to tension issues. My thought has been that this is related to the composition of the brass itself. In 45 ACP Herter's and UMC are two head stamps in particular that I avoid because of this. I have had poor luck with Winchester 380 brass as well.

I am considering buying a Redding taper crimp die just to see what difference, if any, it would make on the results. These plated bullets are soft. I am struggling with the idea that you can apply any crimp die to them without marking them and reducing the diameter to some extent but without another die to compare results on this is only speculation.

At this point my conclusion is that when adjusted per the instructions provided I cannot see where the use of this die presents potential hazard. I have not personally experienced any negative results that I can attribute to the use of this die.

That said I can definitely see where people could have a tendency to improperly adjust this die. When I am running this die I can barely feel the die contacting the case. I can imagine a scenario where novice users encounter this and believe they should be able to feel it more. This could lead some to choose to crank down the adjustment on the die thus over crimping the round and creating potential issues.

My apologies for the long post but I figured as much run as this topic seems to get on this forum that I might not be the only person curious about this.

Todd

[grouptherapy]

Good write up Todd. I barely feel the crimp die too. I adjust between 1/4-1/2 at the most. I have seen visible marks on pulled bullets when crimping hard and its around the mouth of the case on the bullet. I like enough to barely feel it. I don't have the swaged down diameter others experience from improper adjustment and negligent use/abuse. Just me. Best wishes.

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